Lovecraft Maps?

[Bridge]

(05-28-2012 06:48 PM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  What I like the most about Lovecraft, is that it pits mankind against the whole universe, and does it so well that the smallness of humanity is the terrifying bit. In Doctor Who, when the spider people is revealed to have created Earth just as a place to nest in, that was a Lovecraft moment for me. That's what I loved about Tennant too: He brought Lovecraft into Doctor Who.

I've never watched Doctor Who and I don't really want to but presumably that's a major spoiler. Maybe you want to wrap some spoiler tags around that?

---

(05-28-2012 05:43 PM)Adrianis Wrote:  Well, not that I want to SPOIL anything for anyone that hasnt read it but, the Dunwich Horror features a monster that is totally invisible. Being totally invisible, it is a little easier to model than, say, Cthulu itself.

Rockworm... "Even though I haven't read any lovecraft stories, I could base on a Lovecraft area"
lol, as I said, there is nothing about the places themselves that Lovecraft writes about that is interesting, it is what happens there (i.e. the story that Lovecraft writes) that makes them interesting.

The real problem with all this 'Making a Lovecraft CS' business is that, the best part about Lovecrafts stories based on the so-called Cthulu Mythos, is how utterly incomprehensible the situation is. The principle of the inter-dimensional alien god horrors is meant to be something that your mind finds difficult to deal with, like the story about the asteroid hitting earth with the 'new colour' in it. This incomprehensible horror theme lends itself extremely well in literature, where Lovecraft is relying on your imagination's constant involvement in building the picture in your mind, but in a Game? I'm not so sure it could be pulled off, certainly not well, and almost certainly not by a bunch of amateurs like us Then again, be fun to try!

The sky really is the limit in this case. It depends on the amount of imagination the developers have how well it can be pulled off. Yes, when you create a game you have to arbitrarily design environments and characters to be experienced in exactly one way (well, you have different interpretations of course, but the appearance never changes), whereas literature spends much of the time giving a general description. Reading a story that explains the environment in such tedious detail that you know where everything is including how the drain pipes on houses are designed or stupid stuff like rocks would just be unbearable. In a game however this is mandatory. You cannot cut any corners with the environment or the game world is not going to feel real.

So, just because all the unspeakable horrors and unearthly objects will be totally arbitrary in their appearance doesn't mean the idea itself is necessarily lost IMO. Call of Cthulhu: DCotE proved that Lovecraftian games can work. It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me. It will always be best in literary form of course, but I think saying it cannot or is necessarily difficult to do is incorrect. It will be changed and some things will be lost but the core will always remain and the rest of the stuff is up to the developer to fill in. If you can't do it it's just because you don't know how, not because it can't be done. IMO at least.

[Cranky Old Man]

(05-28-2012 08:40 PM)Bridge Wrote:  I've never watched Doctor Who and I don't really want to but presumably that's a major spoiler. Maybe you want to wrap some spoiler tags around that?

Sure thing.

[Bridge]

(05-28-2012 08:54 PM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 08:40 PM)Bridge Wrote:  I've never watched Doctor Who and I don't really want to but presumably that's a major spoiler. Maybe you want to wrap some spoiler tags around that?

Sure thing.

I see you did but it wasn't really a request as such, just a concern. You would be the better judge of that being a fan and all. Is it really worth watching though? It seems to be a really controversial thing, where you either love it to death or just hate it entirely. I watched a short segment once and it seemed like it had low production values and bad acting to me. Maybe the premise and some other things make up for it though.

[The Rock Worm]

(05-28-2012 08:40 PM)Bridge Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 06:48 PM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  What I like the most about Lovecraft, is that it pits mankind against the whole universe, and does it so well that the smallness of humanity is the terrifying bit. In Doctor Who, when the spider people is revealed to have created Earth just as a place to nest in, that was a Lovecraft moment for me. That's what I loved about Tennant too: He brought Lovecraft into Doctor Who.

I've never watched Doctor Who and I don't really want to but presumably that's a major spoiler. Maybe you want to wrap some spoiler tags around that?

---

(05-28-2012 05:43 PM)Adrianis Wrote:  Well, not that I want to SPOIL anything for anyone that hasnt read it but, the Dunwich Horror features a monster that is totally invisible. Being totally invisible, it is a little easier to model than, say, Cthulu itself.

Rockworm... "Even though I haven't read any lovecraft stories, I could base on a Lovecraft area"
lol, as I said, there is nothing about the places themselves that Lovecraft writes about that is interesting, it is what happens there (i.e. the story that Lovecraft writes) that makes them interesting.

The real problem with all this 'Making a Lovecraft CS' business is that, the best part about Lovecrafts stories based on the so-called Cthulu Mythos, is how utterly incomprehensible the situation is. The principle of the inter-dimensional alien god horrors is meant to be something that your mind finds difficult to deal with, like the story about the asteroid hitting earth with the 'new colour' in it. This incomprehensible horror theme lends itself extremely well in literature, where Lovecraft is relying on your imagination's constant involvement in building the picture in your mind, but in a Game? I'm not so sure it could be pulled off, certainly not well, and almost certainly not by a bunch of amateurs like us Then again, be fun to try!

The sky really is the limit in this case. It depends on the amount of imagination the developers have how well it can be pulled off. Yes, when you create a game you have to arbitrarily design environments and characters to be experienced in exactly one way (well, you have different interpretations of course, but the appearance never changes), whereas literature spends much of the time giving a general description. Reading a story that explains the environment in such tedious detail that you know where everything is including how the drain pipes on houses are designed or stupid stuff like rocks would just be unbearable. In a game however this is mandatory. You cannot cut any corners with the environment or the game world is not going to feel real.

So, just because all the unspeakable horrors and unearthly objects will be totally arbitrary in their appearance doesn't mean the idea itself is necessarily lost IMO. Call of Cthulhu: DCotE proved that Lovecraftian games can work. It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me. It will always be best in literary form of course, but I think saying it cannot or is necessarily difficult to do is incorrect. It will be changed and some things will be lost but the core will always remain and the rest of the stuff is up to the developer to fill in. If you can't do it it's just because you don't know how, not because it can't be done. IMO at least.

I've heard of Call of Cthulhu: DCotE and was sad to hear that because Headfirst went bankrupt we don't have sequels of that game. I haven't played it yet, but looks to be the same style game graphics. This led me to think that, if Headfirst could do it, either Frictional Games or one of us could do it too. (Who knows, maybe the Frictional Games folks are reading this discussion and getting ideas for a new game after Amnesia 2 right now ).


"It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me" Yes I too have heard this of Lovecraft stories (or inspired tales of Lovecraft's works). I have a neat story idea that I believe fits this atmosphere, be a fun custom story, and be not too difficult to make.

PS: If you want, I can PM you me story idea and get your feed back on it.

[Bridge]

(05-28-2012 09:51 PM)The Rock Worm Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 08:40 PM)Bridge Wrote:  

(05-28-2012 06:48 PM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  What I like the most about Lovecraft, is that it pits mankind against the whole universe, and does it so well that the smallness of humanity is the terrifying bit. In Doctor Who, when the spider people is revealed to have created Earth just as a place to nest in, that was a Lovecraft moment for me. That's what I loved about Tennant too: He brought Lovecraft into Doctor Who.

I've never watched Doctor Who and I don't really want to but presumably that's a major spoiler. Maybe you want to wrap some spoiler tags around that?

---

(05-28-2012 05:43 PM)Adrianis Wrote:  Well, not that I want to SPOIL anything for anyone that hasnt read it but, the Dunwich Horror features a monster that is totally invisible. Being totally invisible, it is a little easier to model than, say, Cthulu itself.

Rockworm... "Even though I haven't read any lovecraft stories, I could base on a Lovecraft area"
lol, as I said, there is nothing about the places themselves that Lovecraft writes about that is interesting, it is what happens there (i.e. the story that Lovecraft writes) that makes them interesting.

The real problem with all this 'Making a Lovecraft CS' business is that, the best part about Lovecrafts stories based on the so-called Cthulu Mythos, is how utterly incomprehensible the situation is. The principle of the inter-dimensional alien god horrors is meant to be something that your mind finds difficult to deal with, like the story about the asteroid hitting earth with the 'new colour' in it. This incomprehensible horror theme lends itself extremely well in literature, where Lovecraft is relying on your imagination's constant involvement in building the picture in your mind, but in a Game? I'm not so sure it could be pulled off, certainly not well, and almost certainly not by a bunch of amateurs like us Then again, be fun to try!

The sky really is the limit in this case. It depends on the amount of imagination the developers have how well it can be pulled off. Yes, when you create a game you have to arbitrarily design environments and characters to be experienced in exactly one way (well, you have different interpretations of course, but the appearance never changes), whereas literature spends much of the time giving a general description. Reading a story that explains the environment in such tedious detail that you know where everything is including how the drain pipes on houses are designed or stupid stuff like rocks would just be unbearable. In a game however this is mandatory. You cannot cut any corners with the environment or the game world is not going to feel real.

So, just because all the unspeakable horrors and unearthly objects will be totally arbitrary in their appearance doesn't mean the idea itself is necessarily lost IMO. Call of Cthulhu: DCotE proved that Lovecraftian games can work. It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me. It will always be best in literary form of course, but I think saying it cannot or is necessarily difficult to do is incorrect. It will be changed and some things will be lost but the core will always remain and the rest of the stuff is up to the developer to fill in. If you can't do it it's just because you don't know how, not because it can't be done. IMO at least.

I've heard of Call of Cthulhu: DCotE and was sad to hear that because Headfirst went bankrupt we don't have sequels of that game. I haven't played it yet, but looks to be the same style game graphics. This led me to think that, if Headfirst could do it, either Frictional Games or one of us could do it too. (Who knows, maybe the Frictional Games folks are reading this discussion and getting ideas for a new game after Amnesia 2 right now ).


"It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me" Yes I too have heard this of Lovecraft stories (or inspired tales of Lovecraft's works). I have a neat story idea that I believe fits this atmosphere, be a fun custom story, and be not too difficult to make.

PS: If you want, I can PM you me story idea and get your feed back on it.

Sure if you want.

BTW you should really play DCotE, it's really one of the best introductions to Lovecraft's themes apart from just reading the stories, because it's basically like a Lovecraft fruit mix-up of awesome. One of the main complaints is that the game is too action focused in the second half and it unfortunately shows some clear signs of being rushed but it really is one of the greatest games ever made and mandatory for any horror fan. The first half of the game really is by far the most accurate representation of Lovecraft's stories, apart from maybe the Call of Cthulhu movie (the silent one; it's great).

[Cranky Old Man]

(05-29-2012 12:52 AM)Bridge Wrote:  BTW you should really play DCotE, it's really one of the best introductions to Lovecraft's themes apart from just reading the stories, because it's basically like a Lovecraft fruit mix-up of awesome. One of the main complaints is that the game is too action focused in the second half and it unfortunately shows some clear signs of being rushed but it really is one of the greatest games ever made and mandatory for any horror fan. The first half of the game really is by far the most accurate representation of Lovecraft's stories, apart from maybe the Call of Cthulhu movie (the silent one; it's great).

As great as the game really is, I actually hated the chase scenes, because they had to be done perfectly. I think the second chase is just running down a hallway, and even holding down the forward key wasn't enough sometimes. I quit that game at the third chase scene, because that scene lasted faaar too long. I watched an LP of it instead.

[Adrianis]

(05-28-2012 08:40 PM)Bridge Wrote:  The sky really is the limit in this case. It depends on the amount of imagination the developers have how well it can be pulled off. Yes, when you create a game you have to arbitrarily design environments and characters to be experienced in exactly one way (well, you have different interpretations of course, but the appearance never changes), whereas literature spends much of the time giving a general description. Reading a story that explains the environment in such tedious detail that you know where everything is including how the drain pipes on houses are designed or stupid stuff like rocks would just be unbearable. In a game however this is mandatory. You cannot cut any corners with the environment or the game world is not going to feel real.

So, just because all the unspeakable horrors and unearthly objects will be totally arbitrary in their appearance doesn't mean the idea itself is necessarily lost IMO. Call of Cthulhu: DCotE proved that Lovecraftian games can work. It nails the atmosphere and sense of helplessness which is the most distinctive part of Lovecraft's stories for me. It will always be best in literary form of course, but I think saying it cannot or is necessarily difficult to do is incorrect. It will be changed and some things will be lost but the core will always remain and the rest of the stuff is up to the developer to fill in. If you can't do it it's just because you don't know how, not because it can't be done. IMO at least.

I guess it really depends what you value most from the stories. I don't doubt that representations of the stories and atmosphere can be done, or even done well, it's the element of incomprehensibility that I would say is most unique to his horror stories, at least that how it seemed to me when I read them, that's what would be so difficult. I haven't played Dark Corners of the Earth but I have heard great things and would like to try it someday, when I watched the trailer at the time however (I do appreciate that they of course show exciting shooty-action moments for trailers, which is often not representative) and saw creatures in the boat scene, it was very clear that the aspect I valued most would not be there, so I didn't bother with it.

As I said it would be great fun to try, I mean that sincerely, but I have no idea right now how that particular element of incomprehensibility could be translated into this kind of experience without it feeling like a trite arbitrary representation, particularly in a mod where we do not have access to the engine source code.

P.S. Rock Worm I'm happy to give you feed back if you wanna PM me

[Bridge]

(05-29-2012 01:09 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 12:52 AM)Bridge Wrote:  BTW you should really play DCotE, it's really one of the best introductions to Lovecraft's themes apart from just reading the stories, because it's basically like a Lovecraft fruit mix-up of awesome. One of the main complaints is that the game is too action focused in the second half and it unfortunately shows some clear signs of being rushed but it really is one of the greatest games ever made and mandatory for any horror fan. The first half of the game really is by far the most accurate representation of Lovecraft's stories, apart from maybe the Call of Cthulhu movie (the silent one; it's great).

As great as the game really is, I actually hated the chase scenes, because they had to be done perfectly. I think the second chase is just running down a hallway, and even holding down the forward key wasn't enough sometimes. I quit that game at the third chase scene, because that scene lasted faaar too long. I watched an LP of it instead.

Yeah, there is a bit of a disconnect when you need to replay scenes over and over but you can't deny those scenes were fucking tense. By second chase you mean

Spoiler below!

in the Refinery with the Shoggoth

? I dunno if you realized, but you have to bolt the gates shut after you go through; it buys you enough time to escape (though you can't waste any time). I don't really know what third chase scene you are referring to though, and I replayed the game only a few months ago. If you mean

Spoiler below!

at the end

then unfortunately that sequence was not designed too well because the game was rushed; the only way to beat it is to use the fan patch that allows you to edit movement speed or just skip the triggers, there are video on youtube on that.

[Cranky Old Man]

(05-29-2012 01:20 AM)Bridge Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:09 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 12:52 AM)Bridge Wrote:  BTW you should really play DCotE, it's really one of the best introductions to Lovecraft's themes apart from just reading the stories, because it's basically like a Lovecraft fruit mix-up of awesome. One of the main complaints is that the game is too action focused in the second half and it unfortunately shows some clear signs of being rushed but it really is one of the greatest games ever made and mandatory for any horror fan. The first half of the game really is by far the most accurate representation of Lovecraft's stories, apart from maybe the Call of Cthulhu movie (the silent one; it's great).

As great as the game really is, I actually hated the chase scenes, because they had to be done perfectly. I think the second chase is just running down a hallway, and even holding down the forward key wasn't enough sometimes. I quit that game at the third chase scene, because that scene lasted faaar too long. I watched an LP of it instead.

Yeah, there is a bit of a disconnect when you need to replay scenes over and over but you can't deny those scenes were fucking tense. By second chase you mean

Spoiler below!

in the Refinery with the Shoggoth

? I dunno if you realized, but you have to bolt the gates shut after you go through; it buys you enough time to escape (though you can't waste any time). I don't really know what third chase scene you are referring to though, and I replayed the game only a few months ago. If you mean

Spoiler below!

at the end

then unfortunately that sequence was not designed too well because the game was rushed; the only way to beat it is to use the fan patch that allows you to edit movement speed or just skip the triggers, there are video on youtube on that.

Yes, they were really well made, but bolting those doors had to be done within 1-2 seconds, or you'd have to redo the entire sequence, which was a little weird in the second chase scene, because locking those doors won't exactly make them more resilient. Of course I bolted the doors, but outrunning it was still a random possibility.
Really? The boat scene is impossible? I'm glad that I gave up on that then, because I wasn't aware of any fan patches. My grief with that scene was that it was too fast and went on without autosaves, and it happened right after a boss too, that I think had to be re-defeated every time.
Also, any gameplay that wants the player to figure out a sequence of actions while dying, isn't that good. The first scene features a hallway that you have to crouch walk through, but if you didn't turn around and figure that your followers from before would follow you by jumping from roof to roof, and bar the door with a cupboard that you would not have time to spot otherwise, then you'd either die, or be nearly dead. You have to memorize exactly what to do, and that's pretty bad.

[The Rock Worm]

(05-29-2012 01:38 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:20 AM)Bridge Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 01:09 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote:  

(05-29-2012 12:52 AM)Bridge Wrote:  BTW you should really play DCotE, it's really one of the best introductions to Lovecraft's themes apart from just reading the stories, because it's basically like a Lovecraft fruit mix-up of awesome. One of the main complaints is that the game is too action focused in the second half and it unfortunately shows some clear signs of being rushed but it really is one of the greatest games ever made and mandatory for any horror fan. The first half of the game really is by far the most accurate representation of Lovecraft's stories, apart from maybe the Call of Cthulhu movie (the silent one; it's great).

As great as the game really is, I actually hated the chase scenes, because they had to be done perfectly. I think the second chase is just running down a hallway, and even holding down the forward key wasn't enough sometimes. I quit that game at the third chase scene, because that scene lasted faaar too long. I watched an LP of it instead.

Yeah, there is a bit of a disconnect when you need to replay scenes over and over but you can't deny those scenes were fucking tense. By second chase you mean

Spoiler below!

in the Refinery with the Shoggoth

? I dunno if you realized, but you have to bolt the gates shut after you go through; it buys you enough time to escape (though you can't waste any time). I don't really know what third chase scene you are referring to though, and I replayed the game only a few months ago. If you mean

Spoiler below!

at the end

then unfortunately that sequence was not designed too well because the game was rushed; the only way to beat it is to use the fan patch that allows you to edit movement speed or just skip the triggers, there are video on youtube on that.

Yes, they were really well made, but bolting those doors had to be done within 1-2 seconds, or you'd have to redo the entire sequence, which was a little weird in the second chase scene, because locking those doors won't exactly make them more resilient. Of course I bolted the doors, but outrunning it was still a random possibility.
Really? The boat scene is impossible? I'm glad that I gave up on that then, because I wasn't aware of any fan patches. My grief with that scene was that it was too fast and went on without autosaves, and it happened right after a boss too, that I think had to be re-defeated every time.
Also, any gameplay that wants the player to figure out a sequence of actions while dying, isn't that good. The first scene features a hallway that you have to crouch walk through, but if you didn't turn around and figure that your followers from before would follow you by jumping from roof to roof, and bar the door with a cupboard that you would not have time to spot otherwise, then you'd either die, or be nearly dead. You have to memorize exactly what to do, and that's pretty bad.

Now I haven't played this game, but from the two of you, the game sounds fun for the most part (with a few annoying spots). It's good to hear that at least the first half is true to a Lovecraft story.