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2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update
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crisosphinx Offline
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Post: #51
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

Semi-long rant
Spoiler below!

(02-19-2013 07:57 PM)martinnord Wrote:  Im not saying im approving of what the guy is saying but what you're saying is abselutely ridiculous criso.
Should the guy not be allowed to criticize a game simply because he could not do better himself?
Though with an arrogant style to it he clearly tries to come with proper arguments for his claims so theres nothing wrong with him criticizing it IMO.
Of you course also have the right to counter his arguments but of all the smart things in the world you could have said you come with the silly "you could not have done it better yourself".
You are correct, but with the authoritarianism he has in the way he has written his "critique" is nothing but slander. I'm not particularly angry at it, I'm rather put off by it. It's like when someone comments on your drawing or 3D model and says, "it's ok, but not good I bet I could do better," in which you proceed to see what they draw or model, and it's complete crap (insert horrible sonic fanfiction drawing here).

It wasn't so much as a critic as it was a, "I know how to make you better, listen to me, because I'm all-knowning". Even if he wasn't trying to do that, he did it. O:

I believe I'm correct in saying, "try doing it yourself and maintain the same quality through a generation of games, without taking too much deviation from the original". It could be easy, to some extent, but it is bloody hard to make something seem new, if you're using the original stuff or at least referencing the original. Smile

-----------

Sorry, you are silly.
English is not my main language, so be calm.

----
I'm perfectly calm. I'm glad you saw the little humor in there that you did (referring to your "you are silly").

Animation and Rig questions -> crisosphinx@yahoo.com

3D Generalist. Notable work on FG Forums - The Great Work, Five Magics and Cowards Debt.
02-19-2013 08:15 PM
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Zgroktar Offline
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Post: #52
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:09 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 07:48 PM)martinnord Wrote:  I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

That's exactly what I want to improve. The problem of Amnesia is that you feels like to be Daniel and not you. The goal of immersion is not when you play a game character. The goal is when you feels like YOU are the game character.

And therefore when I say "I have to find a key" that means I am in the game and thinking for myself or write my own mementos. But when the player said "You have to find a key" that means you are not in the game and the player is just talking to you.

You've totally missed the point of Amnesia, Daniel is not some mute Half-life like character which you can easily pretend to be. The point of the game is to play in Daniel's shoes, uncover his dark past, and discover what lies ahead. There is nothing you can take personal here, it is his journey, not yours.
02-19-2013 08:16 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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Post: #53
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:07 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  Amnesia still fells less like one than all others, especially compared with Penumbra with it's combat and all other common game features which were removed.

Penumbra has no "combat" it is not a system to kill enemies! That's what people also don't understand. The goal of Penumbra never was to fight back like a superhero. The "combat" is just a very good idea to improve complexity of the game to solve puzzles and other stuff. Anyway, that are not "weapons" it's meaned just as "tools". Well, the player will be able to fight, but it's heavy to handle and not really the goal of the game.

I think, it's more bad when the mechanics are like in Amnesia, when you hear a monster and then hide and wait... after one minute the music is stopping and the monster is removed for ever. That's bad. In penumbra the monsters get never removed by the game. So, a further problem of Amnesia's horror mechanics.

(02-19-2013 08:16 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  You've totally missed the point of Amnesia, Daniel is not some mute Half-life like character which you can easily pretend to be. The point of the game is to play in Daniel's shoes, uncover his dark past, and discover what lies ahead. There is nothing you can take personal here, it is his journey, not yours.

But as Traggey said, you are playing him.
There is no Daniel, you are Daniel. You are you.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 08:26 PM by Minecrawler.)
02-19-2013 08:18 PM
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Zgroktar Offline
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Post: #54
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:18 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 08:07 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  Amnesia still fells less like one than all others, especially compared with Penumbra with it's combat and all other common game features which were removed.

Penumbra has no "combat" it is not a system to kill enemies! That's what people also don't understand. The goal of Penumbra never was to fight back like a superhero. The "combat" is just a very good idea to improve complexity of the game to solve puzzles and other stuff. Anyway, that are not "weapons" it's meaned just as "tools". Well, the player will be able to fight, but it's heavy to handle and not really the goal of the game.

I think, it's more bad when the mechanics are like in Amnesia, when you hear a monster and then hide and wait... after one minute the music is stopping and the monster is removed for ever. That's bad. In penumbra the monsters get never removed by the game. So, a further problem of Amnesia's horror mechanics.

Considering you opinion about combat, yes that was the idea in theory. But practically it was just a lousy combat system which could have been abused and cheated in many ways, that is why it was removed, it just didn't worked.

While I also don't like the monster mechanics in Amnesia altogether, it still provides a decent edge, and many unpleasant surprises which constantly keeps you on your guard. But yes, that could be further improved.
02-19-2013 08:26 PM
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crisosphinx Offline
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Post: #55
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:18 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 08:07 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  Amnesia still fells less like one than all others, especially compared with Penumbra with it's combat and all other common game features which were removed.

Penumbra has no "combat" it is not a system to kill enemies! That's what people also don't understand. The goal of Penumbra never was to fight back like a superhero. The "combat" is just a very good idea to improve complexity of the game to solve puzzles and other stuff. Anyway, that are not "weapons" it's meaned just as "tools". Well, the player will be able to fight, but it's heavy to handle and not really the goal of the game.

I think, it's more bad when the mechanics are like in Amnesia, when you hear a monster and then hide and wait... after one minute the music is stopping and the monster is removed for ever. That's bad. In penumbra the monsters get never removed by the game. So, a further problem of Amnesia's horror mechanics.

And there lies an issue. Prenumbra still had the ability to kill the scary creatures that were attacking you. Amnesia, as the name implies, had you forget everything. The world is scary now, you're a different person, you don't know who you are, you don't know what you're in for. Amnesia was suppose to be all fear, no fighting back.

Besides, play some custom stories for Amnesia. Some monsters vary in waiting times or are so smart, they still come after you. Also, sorry to burst your bubble, but technically the game is done. Minor tweaks are in order, from what Jens described. You can't just revamp the entire game based on one or two things a single player is wants to have changed.

Also, why is it bad that the monsters would get removed in the original game? It gave you a sense of security, which was forcefully stripped away when a new or the same monster reappeared.

Animation and Rig questions -> crisosphinx@yahoo.com

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02-19-2013 08:28 PM
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Zgroktar Offline
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Post: #56
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:18 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 08:07 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  Amnesia still fells less like one than all others, especially compared with Penumbra with it's combat and all other common game features which were removed.

Penumbra has no "combat" it is not a system to kill enemies! That's what people also don't understand. The goal of Penumbra never was to fight back like a superhero. The "combat" is just a very good idea to improve complexity of the game to solve puzzles and other stuff. Anyway, that are not "weapons" it's meaned just as "tools". Well, the player will be able to fight, but it's heavy to handle and not really the goal of the game.

I think, it's more bad when the mechanics are like in Amnesia, when you hear a monster and then hide and wait... after one minute the music is stopping and the monster is removed for ever. That's bad. In penumbra the monsters get never removed by the game. So, a further problem of Amnesia's horror mechanics.

(02-19-2013 08:16 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  You've totally missed the point of Amnesia, Daniel is not some mute Half-life like character which you can easily pretend to be. The point of the game is to play in Daniel's shoes, uncover his dark past, and discover what lies ahead. There is nothing you can take personal here, it is his journey, not yours.

But as Traggey said, you are playing him.
There is no Daniel, you are Daniel. You are you.

That just doesn't make any sense. Dodgy
02-19-2013 08:30 PM
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crisosphinx Offline
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Post: #57
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:30 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 08:18 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  But as Traggey said, you are playing him.
There is no Daniel, you are Daniel. You are you.

That just doesn't make any sense. Dodgy

Agreed.

Animation and Rig questions -> crisosphinx@yahoo.com

3D Generalist. Notable work on FG Forums - The Great Work, Five Magics and Cowards Debt.
02-19-2013 08:31 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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Post: #58
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:26 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  Considering you opinion about combat, yes that was the idea in theory. But practically it was just a lousy combat system which could have been abused and cheated in many ways, that is why it was removed, it just didn't worked.

While I also don't like the monster mechanics in Amnesia altogether, it still provides a decent edge, and many unpleasant surprises which constantly keeps you on your guard. But yes, that could be further improved.

Yes, but I think the combat system was not removed because it didn't work. I think it was removed because of the story. You get dispirited and lose all your inventory items (except the glowstick). And that's a very good idea to improve feeling of helpless. Because when you lose "weapons" you felt more helpless than if you never had them before.

In general, Penumbra's mechanics in monsters and combat is better than Amnesia's way. Please don't think I wish to have weapons in Amnesia, but I wish to lose them that makes you even more the feeling of helpless. At all, I really hate combat systems. But Penumbra's system works great. And when you play the game as first time, it's very unwieldy that you can't simply kill monsters.
02-19-2013 08:36 PM
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Hirnwirbel Offline
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Post: #59
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

Quote: An other example is when there's a locked door:

"It's locked, you must find an other way around."

"It seems to be locked, perhaps I have to find an other way around."


Which text do you think is better for immersion and credibility?
Neither, for the reasons I already stated. The best thing for me would be a handwritten-looking note that simply says "Door in cellar is locked." or "Find way around locked door". Notes that sound like something I'd actually write, since I don't give instructions to myself by saying "I should do..." .

Actually, the BEST thing for me would be an empty notebook into which I can write notes myself. Unfortunately, not many games have such a thing, especially not modern ones.
Quote: Penumbra has no "combat" it is not a system to kill enemies! That's what people also don't understand. The goal of Penumbra never was to fight back like a superhero. The "combat" is just a very good idea to improve complexity of the game to solve puzzles and other stuff. Anyway, that are not "weapons" it's meaned just as "tools". Well, the player will be able to fight, but it's heavy to handle and not really the goal of the
game.
Yes and no. It is true that most players did not understand how the combat system was intended in Penumbra. Frictional said so themselves in their talk at GDC.
However, in the end this is still a flaw of the game itself. Of course every game that focusses on immersion requires the player to "play along" to a certain degree. But that doesn't change the fact that a game which makes this easier for the player is superior to one that makes it difficult.

They found out that including combat was distracting for most players and made it hard for them to feel the intended horror - partly due to being used to a certain combat-induced mindset from playing other games of course. Therefore they decided to remove the combat element from Black Plague and Amnesia, making them scarier for most people.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 08:42 PM by Hirnwirbel.)
02-19-2013 08:40 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:40 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote:  Neither, for the reasons I already stated. The best thing for me would be a handwritten-looking note that simply says "Door in cellar is locked." or "Find way around locked door". Notes that sound like something I'd actually write, since I don't give instructions to myself by saying "I should do..." .

"Door in cellar is locked" as a memento is OK, but not the second one. Because when you say "Find something" that sounds like a hint given by the computer or an other person, but not by you.

Correct is: "I have to find a way around locked door." Or just "Have to find a way around locked door."

And don't think this is a minor problem. For me, that takes a very huge affect to immersion.


(02-19-2013 08:40 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote:  Actually, the BEST thing for me would be an empty notebook into which I can write notes myself. Unfortunately, not many games have such a thing, especially not modern ones.

Well, that's really an awesome idea!
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 08:48 PM by Minecrawler.)
02-19-2013 08:46 PM
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