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2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update
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crisosphinx Offline
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Post: #41
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:15 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
Spoiler below!
Hello Jens,
I'm following this game for a while and finally wanted to tell you something about "how to improve immersion" and also for all the others working on this game!

First I have to say is, that I played Penumbra first, then Amnesia and now Silent Hill.
Amnesia was a great game, surely. But you guys did something wrong in gamedesign with the texts and where you now are translating AMFP, I will tell you some important things to improve immersion. Because a major problem of Amnesia are the texts.
Penumbra and Silent Hill did it better, so let me explain early:

In Amnesia the texts are written as by a third person, not thought as the player's minds. So, it seems like more as a hint by the game instead to be part of the player itself.
Some simple examples:
"Find the key for wine cellar."
"Press J to open journal."
"Follow the trail and find their source."

Also do never use words like "You must, you should, you can" etc. Do never use commands for what the player have to do! That seems like to be in a game and it's killing the immersion in best grades.
Do it like in Penumbra, that the player is writing or thinking his minds of the actual situation or puzzles.
The texts normally should be like:

"I found a locked door into wine cellar, but certainly there must be a key to unlock it."
"When I press J, my journal can be opened."
"Hmm... there's a trail on the ground... should I follow it to find their source?"

That means to make the game more adventure-feeling with a positive effect to immersion.
Do use words that shows the player is thinking and obscure what to do. Do use words that shows "I am, I have to etc. and not You.

That's not only for the tranalstion, you also should check the original english texts by thechineseroom if they are well done or not. Please, that's so much important for the feeling to be in a game and not only playing it.

You did it right in Penumbra, so I'm sure you know what I mean. It's a little more work, but it's very important for the impression of general experience!
I hope you will understand my advices and what you did wrong in Amnesia.
I just wanted to say that before it's too late.

Keep that good old work on!

Thanks,
Minecrawler

This is your first post. Way to make an impression on everyone. Hell, if you think you can do it so good, make an entire game with your own budget and release it a year or two from now!

You don't have a budget or any idea on how to make art/ 3d models/ etc. and code (or program) your own engine from scratch? Good luck with that.

(Also, way to go on your spelling and grammatical errors. You are a real 'bro', ain't-cha?)

Thanks,
Crisosphinx

Animation and Rig questions -> crisosphinx@yahoo.com

3D Generalist. Notable work on FG Forums - The Great Work, Five Magics and Cowards Debt.
02-19-2013 07:35 PM
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Hirnwirbel Offline
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Post: #42
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

Aaahh yes. Surely professional Game Designers need the wisdom of some random dude from the Internet to tell them were they went oh so terribly wrong...Sorry, no offense, but your authoritarian tone made me chuckle a bit in this context Big Grin

To me, personally, immersion wasn't broken at all by sentences like "find the key". In fact it makes a lot more sense that way. When I'm making notes for myself, I'd never write "I need to do XY". I already know the note is for me, why would I use a pronoun for myself? That just sounds terribly stilted. Instead I'd write "To do List: - do XY, - find XY..."

A person only uses the word "I" when talking to someone else about himself. So basically, sentences like "I need to find a key" means that the character of the game is talking to me, the player. That does not help identification with the character, in fact it firmly establishes the character as being a clearly different person than me.

As for tutorial texts, I prefer it if they're not trying to be part of the game world. Why would a character think a thought like "I need to press J" ? The key "J" does not exist in the game world. Pretending it does just feels silly to me...
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 07:42 PM by Hirnwirbel.)
02-19-2013 07:37 PM
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WALP Offline
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Posts: 1,221
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Post: #43
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

IMO I think using words such as I can spoil the immersion, since it gives the impression of the character talking to the player rather then the player it self. I think that when you say fx "when I press J, my journal can be opened" its more as if that its Daniel's head sitting on top of the player's headless body telling him what to do.
I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

(02-19-2013 07:37 PM)Hirnwirbel Wrote:  Aaahh yes. Surely professional Game Designers need the wisdom of some random dude from the Internet to tell them were they went oh so terribly wrong...Sorry, no offense, but your authoritarian tone made me chuckle a bit in this context Big Grin

To me, personally, immersion wasn't broken at all by sentences like "find the key". In fact it makes a lot more sense that way. When I'm making notes for myself, I'd never write "I need to do XY". I already know the note is for me, why would I use a pronoun for myself? That just sounds terribly stilted. Instead I'd write "To do List: - do XY, - find XY..."

A person only uses the word "I" when talking to someone else about himself. So basically, sentences like "I need to find a key" means that the character of the game is talking to me, the player. That does not help identification with the character, in fact it firmly establishes the character as being a clearly different person than me.

As for tutorial texts, I prefer it if they're not trying to be part of the game world. Why would a character think a thought like "I need to press J" ? The key "J" does not exist in the game world. Pretending it does just feels silly to me...

seems hirnwirbel thought the same thing which only strenghens our point. just saying.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 07:49 PM by WALP.)
02-19-2013 07:48 PM
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Kreekakon Offline
Pick a god and pray!

Posts: 3,063
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Post: #44
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

I don't pay attention to this sort of stuff that much personally.

If I do it means I'm actively seeking out details like such in the game, and ironically breaking immersion in the process.

[Image: Tv0YgQb.gif]
Image by BandyGrass
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 07:57 PM by Kreekakon.)
02-19-2013 07:50 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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Post: #45
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:22 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  can't agree with you in this one, you are mentioning details so minor that doesn't effect the quality of the game in greater scale, Those things you mentioned are actually only at the start of the game, used only as a mini tutorial for the players. Amnesia is still much more superior game than Penumbra, and for me personally it is deeper even than Silent Hill 2 in so many aspects.

Anyway I personally appreciate your input, and I wan't to welcome you Smile

I'm sure you played Amnesia first, before you started Penumbra, right?
And this is not just in the beginning of the tutorial, it's part of the whole game.
Well, there are more importand things to make a good immersion and that is just a minor thing. But you don't know how much just the style of the texts can influence the experience.

Everyone who played Penumbra first will understand my meanings and that's a general way to improve adventure feeling and not seeing the game as a game. I think, a game never should present itself like a game, instead it's important to mediate a feeling that is earnestly.

The texts are only a little problem, but with a huge affect to the experience at all. It's more interesting to feel like to be unknowing about objects and situations in the environment.

An other example is when there's a locked door:


"It's locked, you must find an other way around."

"It seems to be locked, perhaps I have to find an other way around."



Which text do you think is better for immersion and credibility?

But now I don't want to make too much off-topic, I just hoped that anyone of the developers would read that here...
02-19-2013 07:56 PM
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WALP Offline
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Posts: 1,221
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Post: #46
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:35 PM)crisosphinx Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 07:15 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
Spoiler below!
Hello Jens,
I'm following this game for a while and finally wanted to tell you something about "how to improve immersion" and also for all the others working on this game!

First I have to say is, that I played Penumbra first, then Amnesia and now Silent Hill.
Amnesia was a great game, surely. But you guys did something wrong in gamedesign with the texts and where you now are translating AMFP, I will tell you some important things to improve immersion. Because a major problem of Amnesia are the texts.
Penumbra and Silent Hill did it better, so let me explain early:

In Amnesia the texts are written as by a third person, not thought as the player's minds. So, it seems like more as a hint by the game instead to be part of the player itself.
Some simple examples:
"Find the key for wine cellar."
"Press J to open journal."
"Follow the trail and find their source."

Also do never use words like "You must, you should, you can" etc. Do never use commands for what the player have to do! That seems like to be in a game and it's killing the immersion in best grades.
Do it like in Penumbra, that the player is writing or thinking his minds of the actual situation or puzzles.
The texts normally should be like:

"I found a locked door into wine cellar, but certainly there must be a key to unlock it."
"When I press J, my journal can be opened."
"Hmm... there's a trail on the ground... should I follow it to find their source?"

That means to make the game more adventure-feeling with a positive effect to immersion.
Do use words that shows the player is thinking and obscure what to do. Do use words that shows "I am, I have to etc. and not You.

That's not only for the tranalstion, you also should check the original english texts by thechineseroom if they are well done or not. Please, that's so much important for the feeling to be in a game and not only playing it.

You did it right in Penumbra, so I'm sure you know what I mean. It's a little more work, but it's very important for the impression of general experience!
I hope you will understand my advices and what you did wrong in Amnesia.
I just wanted to say that before it's too late.

Keep that good old work on!

Thanks,
Minecrawler

This is your first post. Way to make an impression on everyone. Hell, if you think you can do it so good, make an entire game with your own budget and release it a year or two from now!

You don't have a budget or any idea on how to make art/ 3d models/ etc. and code (or program) your own engine from scratch? Good luck with that.

(Also, way to go on your spelling and grammatical errors. You are a real 'bro', ain't-cha?)

Thanks,
Crisosphinx

Im not saying im approving of what the guy is saying but what you're saying is abselutely ridiculous criso.
Should the guy not be allowed to criticize a game simply because he could not do better himself?
Though with an arrogant style to it he clearly tries to come with proper arguments for his claims so theres nothing wrong with him criticizing it IMO.
Of you course also have the right to counter his arguments but of all the smart things in the world you could have said you come with the silly "you could not have done it better yourself".
02-19-2013 07:57 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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Posts: 24
Joined: Feb 2013
Post: #47
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:35 PM)crisosphinx Wrote:  This is your first post. Way to make an impression on everyone. Hell, if you think you can do it so good, make an entire game with your own budget and release it a year or two from now!

You don't have a budget or any idea on how to make art/ 3d models/ etc. and code (or program) your own engine from scratch? Good luck with that.

(Also, way to go on your spelling and grammatical errors. You are a real 'bro', ain't-cha?)

Thanks,
Crisosphinx

Sorry, you are silly.
English is not my main language, so be calm.
02-19-2013 07:58 PM
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Zgroktar Offline
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Post: #48
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:56 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 07:22 PM)Zgroktar Wrote:  can't agree with you in this one, you are mentioning details so minor that doesn't effect the quality of the game in greater scale, Those things you mentioned are actually only at the start of the game, used only as a mini tutorial for the players. Amnesia is still much more superior game than Penumbra, and for me personally it is deeper even than Silent Hill 2 in so many aspects.

Anyway I personally appreciate your input, and I wan't to welcome you Smile

I'm sure you played Amnesia first, before you started Penumbra, right?
And this is not just in the beginning of the tutorial, it's part of the whole game.
Well, there are more importand things to make a good immersion and that is just a minor thing. But you don't know how much just the style of the texts can influence the experience.

Everyone who played Penumbra first will understand my meanings and that's a general way to improve adventure feeling and not seeing the game as a game. I think, a game never should present itself like a game, instead it's important to mediate a feeling that is earnestly.

The texts are only a little problem, but with a huge affect to the experience at all. It's more interesting to feel like to be unknowing about objects and situations in the environment.

An other example is when there's a locked door:


"It's locked, you must find an other way around."

"It seems to be locked, perhaps I have to find an other way around."



Which text do you think is better for immersion and credibility?

But now I don't want to make too much off-topic, I just hoped that anyone of the developers would read that here...

No, I've played Penumbra first years ago, I only recently finished Amnesia, which I wasn't able before due to my weak PC system, so your thesis falls flat. Secondly, to me this is still nitpicking, because of all games Amnesia still fells less like one than all others, especially compared with Penumbra with it's combat and all other common game features which were removed.

And to answer your question, it doesn't matter which line you would, because it would seem arbitrary and superficial no matter how much you ornament it. This is still an old game feature which I think it would be removed from the sequel, like other superficial things, like diary and tinderbox hunting, from what I can tell in interviews.

Still, that about which you speak is still so minor, and really not worth mentioning, let alone having a serious discussion about it.
(This post was last modified: 02-19-2013 08:10 PM by Zgroktar.)
02-19-2013 08:07 PM
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Minecrawler Offline
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Post: #49
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 07:48 PM)martinnord Wrote:  I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

That's exactly what I want to improve. The problem of Amnesia is that you feels like to be Daniel and not you. The goal of immersion is not when you play a game character. The goal is when you feels like YOU are the game character.

And therefore when I say "I have to find a key" that means I am in the game and thinking for myself or write my own mementos. But when the player said "You have to find a key" that means you are not in the game and the player is just talking to you.
02-19-2013 08:09 PM
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Traggey Offline
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Post: #50
RE: 2013-02 Tuesday 19th, Amnesia: A Machine For Pigs Status Update

(02-19-2013 08:09 PM)Minecrawler Wrote:  
(02-19-2013 07:48 PM)martinnord Wrote:  I think that the main problem with your way of thinking is that you fail to properly seperate Main-character and player. Being immersed into the game does not mean you automatically become Daniel. You're still you, but you inside the game's world if immersion is right. When you use "I", its as if the Main character's head is trying to force himself onto the player.

That's exactly what I want to improve. The problem of Amnesia is that you feels like to be Daniel and not you. The goal of immersion is not when you play a game character. The goal is when you feels like YOU are the game character.

And therefore when I say "I have to find a key" that means I am in the game and thinking for myself or write my own mementos. But when the player said "You have to find a key" that means you are not in the game and the player is just talking to you.

But you are playing as Daniel...? Not yourself.
02-19-2013 08:14 PM
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