My main problem with AMFP: Observer vs. Participator

[Alardem]

Is this turning into another aamfp review thread?

yes it is...

ughh these pigs

[Insert reference to pig slaughtering here]

[CirceBaka]

While I agree with most of what Harshly Critical said at the top of this thread, I must say I was immediately disappointed with this game within the first few minutes.

Your character can't open drawers, you don't have inventory and you can't pick up anything that isn't integral to the plot moving forward. In this aspect I think they made the game too easy. If you can pick it up, then you'd better take it with you. That's far too simple for figuring out the puzzles. So I did think some puzzles in Dark Descent were REALLY hard. You have to really think and move accordingly to figure everything out. But in a way, I found that enriched the game because it required a certain amount of skill. There was also a nifty fail safe in the game in case you cannot defeat a creature and move forward so you don't become bored with the game. I found that well thought out.

Ok, so you can't pick up things and open drawers. Even that aside, I was still bothered by not having to worry about your sanity. Mandus is different from Daniel in that aspect because he's not mentally unstable as Daniel was, nor does he possess a crippling fear of the dark. So why not have some system to monitor your health? Nope, no such thing in this game. If you're hurt, best to let the monster kill you because you'll respawn close to where you died. So now there's no reason to treat your character 's life like it matters. Isn't that the whole point of a 1 player game? You assume the identity and life of that character. Your character dies and you eventually pay some price...you lose points, you'll have to beat the boss again and probably defeat other creatures before reaching the boss again. Something along those lines anyway.

There was no sense of immersion in this game. Once I realized the mechanics I was no longer afraid of any monsters because the scares were mapped so predictably. I miss the feel I have for DD where you didn't know from one time to another if something was behind you. You had to outwit the monsters or hide away and wait as if you were living the game. It gave way to great game experiences and I believed those would only be enhanced in AMFP.

I wouldn't say AMFP was a total flop, but there was a lot to be desired. It was a huge let down to all the hype this game created. The music and the graphics were outstanding. Everything else was quite lacking

[Potato]

Ok, so you can't pick up things and open drawers. Even that aside, I was still bothered by not having to worry about your sanity. Mandus is different from Daniel in that aspect because he's not mentally unstable as Daniel was, nor does he possess a crippling fear of the dark. So why not have some system to monitor your health? Nope, no such thing in this game. If you're hurt, best to let the monster kill you because you'll respawn close to where you died. So now there's no reason to treat your character 's life like it matters. Isn't that the whole point of a 1 player game? You assume the identity and life of that character. Your character dies and you eventually pay some price...you lose points, you'll have to beat the boss again and probably defeat other creatures before reaching the boss again. Something along those lines anyway.

There was no sense of immersion in this game. Once I realized the mechanics I was no longer afraid of any monsters because the scares were mapped so predictably. I miss the feel I have for DD where you didn't know from one time to another if something was behind you. You had to outwit the monsters or hide away and wait as if you were living the game. It gave way to great game experiences and I believed those would only be enhanced in AMFP.

There are some parts of your post I disagree with. Mandus, in my opinion, was arguably just as unstable, if not more then Daniel. There were parts throughout the entire game that made you wonder for his sanity. Disappearing doors and areas, an entire level that may have not even existed, hallucinations, and the like. I don't understand what you mean when you say the lack of a health display made you value the characters life less. I valued the characters life just as much as if I had the health meter, maybe more even since it wasn't as predictable. I think MFP was plenty immersive, especially the first hours. There were parts in the cellar where my blood froze because I heard a faint growling. I agree very much about the monsters though, they were poorly used imo (how come the Wretch didn't break down the centrifuge door? How come it didn't break into the fuel pump room?)

[CirceBaka]

Ok, so you can't pick up things and open drawers. Even that aside, I was still bothered by not having to worry about your sanity. Mandus is different from Daniel in that aspect because he's not mentally unstable as Daniel was, nor does he possess a crippling fear of the dark. So why not have some system to monitor your health? Nope, no such thing in this game. If you're hurt, best to let the monster kill you because you'll respawn close to where you died. So now there's no reason to treat your character 's life like it matters. Isn't that the whole point of a 1 player game? You assume the identity and life of that character. Your character dies and you eventually pay some price...you lose points, you'll have to beat the boss again and probably defeat other creatures before reaching the boss again. Something along those lines anyway.

There was no sense of immersion in this game. Once I realized the mechanics I was no longer afraid of any monsters because the scares were mapped so predictably. I miss the feel I have for DD where you didn't know from one time to another if something was behind you. You had to outwit the monsters or hide away and wait as if you were living the game. It gave way to great game experiences and I believed those would only be enhanced in AMFP.

There are some parts of your post I disagree with. Mandus, in my opinion, was arguably just as unstable, if not more then Daniel. There were parts throughout the entire game that made you wonder for his sanity. Disappearing doors and areas, an entire level that may have not even existed, hallucinations, and the like. I don't understand what you mean when you say the lack of a health display made you value the characters life less. I valued the characters life just as much as if I had the health meter, maybe more even since it wasn't as predictable. I think MFP was plenty immersion, especially the first hours. There were parts in the cellar where my blood froze because I heard a faint growling. I agree very much about the monsters though, they were poorly used imo (how come the Wretch didn't break down the centrifuge door? How come it didn't break into the fuel pump room?)

The problem with immersion is I didn't feel like I was the character Mandus wading through the game. The found documents weren't read by a voice actor as in Dark Descent, so I lost that connection to the characters I made in DD. There was just something that made me not connect with the character like I did with Daniel. Maybe it was the plot, maybe it was the fact you couldn't fully interact with your surrounding, maybe because the only voice that was heard was the man on the phone.

As for valuing the life of the character, that is also a bit about immersion to me. I didn't feel like I was actually living the game, having to worry about my wounds and my sanity. No worries about Laudanum. No worries about your mental health. Just avoid the monsters easily. No need to hide really either. The monsters weren't as persistent either. By simplifying the game in this way, to me, it lost something.

In short, AMFP, to me, wasn't even equally as good as DD. The Chinese Room could have done better.

[Alardem]

The problem with immersion is I didn't feel like I was the character Mandus wading through the game. The found documents weren't read by a voice actor as in Dark Descent, so I lost that connection to the characters I made in DD. There was just something that made me not connect with the character like I did with Daniel. Maybe it was the plot, maybe it was the fact you couldn't fully interact with your surrounding, maybe because the only voice that was heard was the man on the phone.

As for valuing the life of the character, that is also a bit about immersion to me. I didn't feel like I was actually living the game, having to worry about my wounds and my sanity. No worries about Laudanum. No worries about your mental health. Just avoid the monsters easily. No need to hide really either. The monsters weren't as persistent either. By simplifying the game in this way, to me, it lost something.

In short, AMFP, to me, wasn't even equally as good as DD. The Chinese Room could have done better.

These are all subjective complaints. But I have to disagree particularly about the health system - every Frictional game has included regenerating health in its mechanics, which makes the health items redundant/unnecessary if you manage to hide long enough. They only really help when in an extended chase, and realistically you would not be able to apply drugs to yourself when a horrific abomination is devouring your flesh.

Of course, both games mess up when it comes to making death something to fear rather than welcome. Perma-death, as in Justine, is one thing - but I'd much prefer having you suffer a hideous, explicit demise. Think about being forced to endure a monster tearing your body apart, spilling blood and making the most horrendous sounds of bones cracking and slippery flesh ripping - all accompanied by your character's ear-splitting screams. I think that's much more of a deterrent to how Amnesia has treated death as a convenient 'skip monster' option.

[Nyarlathotep]

Your character dies and you eventually pay some price...you lose points, you'll have to beat the boss again and probably defeat other creatures before reaching the boss again. Something along those lines anyway.

I think the first Amnesia made it clear that this is not the point, with its opening message telling you to immerse yourself in the game world and role play, rather than trying to "beat" the game.

I never understand this complaint when aimed solely at Pigs. The first Amnesia is designed the same way regarding death. You die, you respawn in the same area with the monster removed either immediately or upon another death. But it's also designed so that dying is a rare thing in the first place.

[Alardem]

Your character dies and you eventually pay some price...you lose points, you'll have to beat the boss again and probably defeat other creatures before reaching the boss again. Something along those lines anyway.

I think the first Amnesia made it clear that this is not the point, with its opening message telling you to immerse yourself in the game world and role play, rather than trying to "beat" the game.

I never understand this complaint when aimed solely at Pigs. The first Amnesia is designed the same way regarding death. You die, you respawn in the same area with the monster removed either immediately or upon another death. But it's also designed so that dying is a rare thing in the first place.

I think the complaint is that people were hoping this problem would be fixed in the sequel, rather than retained. Personally, it does not bother me - but I do wish that getting caught by the Pigs implies that they brutally eat you alive, rather than simply knocking you out temporarily.

[Quizerno]

Pinchbeck thinks game mechanics break immersion, kinda sad that he failed to understand a basic mechanic from the first Amnesia.

"When we first started making the game we were kind of looking at this and we originally had this other idea, a very early thing where it was all sort of based around infection and disease and rot and you were trying to find medicines to stay sane. But when we kept doing this we talked a lot about it with Thomas [Grip] and Jens [Nilsson] at Frictional, and we felt like we were pushing the player out of the world and into a different space where they were just worrying about their supplies. A key thing about this game is about that sense of immersion. If we're doing anything that's essentially damaging that, then we ought to not be putting it in there."

Also.
The idea of defending this game's prose disturbs me so much that I can't even touch it. Nothing Pinchbeck writes has come off as natural to me.

Actually, that is another annoyance for me. Flashback audio doesn't bother me, but those audio logs scattered about were so out of place. People complained about the audio logs in Bioshock Infinite, and these were just as bad. No logic to the placement, no logic to the recordings themselves!

Not to mention that they were clearly meant to emulate Bioshock's audiologs, you could move far away from the box and you would still hear them.

[Alardem]

Pinchbeck thinks game mechanics break immersion, kinda sad that he failed to understand a basic mechanic from the first Amnesia.
Also. The idea of defending this game's prose disturbs me so much that I can't even touch it. Nothing Pinchbeck writes has come off as natural to me.

Not to mention that [phonographs] were clearly meant to emulate Bioshock's audiologs, you could move far away from the box and you would still hear them.

He understood it perfectly well. The presence of collectible light resources often got exploited by having players stockpile them (similar to how an FPS player would save big guns for boss fights) and turned exploration of the castle into tinderbox hunts. While making the light source run on limitless batteries was overkill - one could easily justify dimming its beam or limiting the amount of time you could use a lamp by acknowledging the time period - it's preferable to the idea of running around with 50 tinderboxes on your character.

At the same time, however, AMFP does use notes to incentivize exploration. The secret note hidden near the elevator at the end of the Streets level is a good example. However, this at least furthers the story rather than merely functioning as a game mechanic.

And I doubt the writing was even going for naturalism in the first place. Personally, the writing is a convincing emulation of Gothic fiction and naturalistic prose would seem oddly anachronistic. I agree with the phonographs, though. On subsequent playthroughs it becomes quite amusing to activate a phonograph and still hear the recording from three rooms away. Not to mention the phone-calls...

[Quizerno]

He understood it perfectly well.

He thought that putting in game mechanics would interfere with immersion, he thought horror would prevent people from completing the game. Let me reiterate, he thought adding a sense of WORRY in the successor to an acclaimed horror game would interfere with immersion.

The presence of collectible light resources often got exploited by having players stockpile them (similar to how an FPS player would save big guns for boss fights) and turned exploration of the castle into tinderbox hunts. While making the light source run on limitless batteries was overkill - one could easily justify dimming its beam or limiting the amount of time you could use a lamp by acknowledging the time period -

I fail to see how an "exploit" that some players used is incentive to believe that players are going to ruin the immersion themselves. Since the first game generally encouraged saving resources, it puts one into a mindset. That alone is more immersive than going on without any sort of goal.

it's preferable to the idea of running around with 50 tinderboxes on your character.

No, it's really not. Removing mechanics instead of fixing them is a bad idea and is a mark of laziness.

And I doubt the writing was even going for naturalism in the first place.

I never mentioned naturalism, I said "natural." As in something that you'd believe people would write and/or say. It doesn't.

"How this machine now throbs about me, sensing its rebirth is imminent. The final descent beckons me to enter, as Lily once lay on our wedding bed summoned me into manhood."