What hides between Shadow and Light?

[mmammel]

Just joining in...

(08-08-2009 08:23 PM)Bloody_Eugene Wrote:  That's what I have:

2)
20 T -> B 2 ( 2+0 = 2 )
3 C -> C 3 ( 3=3 )
17 Q -> H 8 (1+7 = 8)

Not sure how to use this, the transformation is by adding the digits of the corresponding number (or MOD 9). Do we apply this to the cipher text? I don't think so because you would lose too much info changing 26 letters into 9. Maybe just the idea of using MOD for fibonacci addition?

4) THE TWO SEEDS!!!!
3, 9, 7, 4, 8, 9, 5, 7, 11, 6, 6, 13, 7,
8, 6, 9, 6, 11, 8, 13, 10, 15, 8, 11, 4, 9,

Right, so it is important to solve the second one to get the next seed. The first one was solved so we know the next number in the sequence is 5, (and then 15 if we need two seeds from each sequence). So we need these seeds to generate fibonacci sequences which should be our key for decryption.

To use the one-time pad (Vernam) we could use either the fibonacci addition (I haven't quite figured out how that works, is it just mod addition??) or typically XOR is used. We could try both. I think the "Less-safe-procedural-Vernam" just means that we are not using the most secure for Vernam which would be a truly random key. We are using less secure -- a generated sequence.

_Mark

[Bloody_Eugene]

(08-12-2009 02:55 PM)mmammel Wrote:  Not sure how to use this, the transformation is by adding the digits of the corresponding number (or MOD 9). Do we apply this to the cipher text? I don't think so because you would lose too much info changing 26 letters into 9. Maybe just the idea of using MOD for fibonacci addition?

Yes, you are right! 26 letters to 9 could be a huge loss of information. So i don't think too that it decipher the text directly.
I have to dig a little bit more about the fibonacci addition, and where to use it!

(08-12-2009 02:55 PM)mmammel Wrote:  Right, so it is important to solve the second one to get the next seed. The first one was solved so we know the next number in the sequence is 5, (and then 15 if we need two seeds from each sequence). So we need these seeds to generate fibonacci sequences which should be our key for decryption.

To use the one-time pad (Vernam) we could use either the fibonacci addition (I haven't quite figured out how that works, is it just mod addition??) or typically XOR is used. We could try both.

Mmm... interesting... XOR...but i have to figure out too. when i have a little more of time i'll try !

(08-12-2009 02:55 PM)mmammel Wrote:  I think the "Less-safe-procedural-Vernam" just means that we are not using the most secure for Vernam which would be a truly random key. We are using less secure -- a generated sequence.

Yeah, you are right!!!!! I think that's a good path! So we have an objective: try to undestand how the sequence generate! Damn, this puzzle is too difficult!

BTW, i was thinking about "the primeary casuse"... the hint inside the web page...it's very strange.... it's not correct in its grammar....
and then i tought "the prime"...could be refer to the prime numbers? could be "the primeary casuse" an anagram of something like "use the prime as y" (but letters are missing) or something like that?

[mmammel]

(08-12-2009 02:55 PM)mmammel Wrote:  8, 6, 9, 6, 11, 8, 13, 10, 15, 8, 11, 4, 9,

I plotted this second sequence as X,Y pairs on a graph. Not sure what to make of it, looks like maybe I would pair the final 9 with a 6 for symmetry, but just guessing....

[TeleProd]

Another Penumbra fan and a new poster with his findings on the second umber sequence. I haven't figured what the sought number is but maybe I will give you some ideas. I found some possible patterns but none of them seem to give a perfectly satisfying answer.

8, 6, 9, 6, 11, 8, 13, 10, 15, 8, 11, 4, 9,

If you look at the odd and even number it forms a pattern like this:
eeoeoeoeoeo (even=e, odd=o)
It seems too good to be random.

You can divide this to odd and even numbers:

even: 8, 6, 6, 8, 10, 8, 4
odd: 9, 11, 13, 15, 11, 9

First of all, there are 6 even and 5 odd numbers. This implies that the sought number could be odd.

There seems to be a pattern in the odd numbers but it's missing one number, 13. It's one possibility but I don't know what to do with the even numbers if you use it.

9 11 13 15 (13) 11 9

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Another interesting find, addition patterns:

even:
8(-2)6(+0)6(+2)8(+2)10(-2)8(-4)4
The addition pattern is:
-2+0+2+2-2-4

odd:
9(+2)11(+2)13(+2)15(-4)11(-2)9
The addition pattern is:
+2+2+2-4-2

Now when you compare them:
-2+0+2+2-2-4...
.......+2+2+2-4-2
It has the same numbers, but the signs don't match exactly.


Still, you could think of it as a loop and move the -2 to the other side
+0+2+2-2-4-2
....+2+2+2-4-2

The only number the pattern of the odd numbers is missing is the +0 before it. This would make the first number of the odd pattern 9 (9-0=9) and the signs wouldn't matter. Then the sequence would be:
8, 9, 6, 9, 6, 11, 8, 13, 10, 15, 8, 11, 4, 9,

This would complete the odd/even number pattern like this:
eoeoeoeoeoeo

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So, my suggestion is to try 13 or (especially) 9 as a seed in the decrypting. I don't really understand how it works so I might not be big help with it. It's 3am here so I'm going to bed.

[Bloody_Eugene]

(08-15-2009 01:19 AM)TeleProd Wrote:  So, my suggestion is to try 13 or (especially) 9 as a seed in the decrypting. I don't really understand how it works so I might not be big help with it. It's 3am here so I'm going to bed.

Thank you for your analysis!!! New things and ideas are welcome!
You know what? There are 117 letters in the text and 117= 13 x 9 !
I'm pretty focused on the number 13 also because the lines of numbers are of 13 numbers each.

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BTW,

* I think I found something *

Do you remeber:

(08-09-2009 03:07 PM)Bloody_Eugene Wrote:  I'm still trying to track down the second line and i've found this:
8...6...9...6...11...8...13...10...15...8...11...4...9
..-2..+3...-3...+5...-3...+5...-3....+5...-7...+3...-7...+5

I'll try to write it in another way:

8 (-2=) 6 (+3=) 9 (-3=) 6 (+5=) 11 (-3=) 8 (+5=) 13 (-3=) 10 (+5=) 15 (-7=) 8 (+3=) 11 (-7=) 4 (+5=) 9

Please note that the signs are -,+,-,+,-,+,-,+,-,+,-,......
And that the numbers to add/subtract are all prime numbers.

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and

(10-04-2008 11:06 AM)Bloody_Eugene Wrote:  This morning I've found another thing: in the first row of scrambled letters there are 81 letters, and in the second row there are 36 letters.
Now 81=9x9 and 36=6x6.
Isn't it strange? We can build two square of letters (I built them horizontal, but maybe it can also be vertical) like these:

YNGPPUZFV
KJZIDSTCW
IZVYIDFYV
QOPSBAVJU
IUNJVPLIF
RMHMZQDFA
BMNWMMLRY
SWAQAZRSX
QEDMJWHSG

and

VJBSFJ
VTCSVV
CPFIMG
MUNSOC
OQGRRJ
UCAVIS

Well, I worked again with this and prime numbers and +,-,+,-,+,-
the series of prime numbers is:
1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, ....
if we put the signs on the series we will have:
+1, -2, +3, -5, +7, -11.

Now I tried to apply the 1st line on the second 6x6 square of letters and what I found?
V , J , B , S , F , J
+1, -2, +3, -5, +7, -11
------------------------
W , H , E , N , M , Y


It really seems that "When my" is the beginning of a question that may lead to the answer we have to submit!
But I was unable to go further. Nothing seems to work on the second line "VTCSVV". Nothing. Damn. This puzzle is driving me insane.

EDIT: Sorry for my ignorance, just checked "prime numbers" on Wikipedia and "1" is not prime. So my theory doesn't stand up, and now i think I've not found anything. "When my" could be a huge coincidence of letters, nothing more.

[spukrian]

(08-15-2009 07:49 PM)Bloody_Eugene Wrote:  Well, I worked again with this and prime numbers and +,-,+,-,+,-
the series of prime numbers is:
1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, ....
if we put the signs on the series we will have:
+1, -2, +3, -5, +7, -11.

Now I tried to apply the 1st line on the second 6x6 square of letters and what I found?
V , J , B , S , F , J
+1, -2, +3, -5, +7, -11
------------------------
W , H , E , N , M , Y


It really seems that "When my" is the beginning of a question that may lead to the answer we have to submit!
But I was unable to go further. Nothing seems to work on the second line "VTCSVV". Nothing. Damn. This puzzle is driving me insane.

I think you might be on to something here. But since it only works on the first 6 numbers then something must be wrong...

Still I think you´re on the right track. Prime numbers was used to encrypt the second line... and so the first line was encrypted using Fibonacci numbers... but how?

EDIT: Sorry guys, I see you have already touched upon this earlier in the thread. I didn´t read thoroughly enough...

Now I have actually put all the information in an Excel-file, so that it´s easier to test stuff, but I still can´t figure anything out.

[Bloody_Eugene]

(08-15-2009 10:54 PM)spukrian Wrote:  EDIT: Sorry guys, I see you have already touched upon this earlier in the thread. I didn´t read thoroughly enough...

Now I have actually put all the information in an Excel-file, so that it´s easier to test stuff, but I still can´t figure anything out.

No Problem!

BTW, i'd like to make an excel file that can add letters value and number, but i'm not into Excel that much... can u do it? And even upload the file so that i can download it?
Thank you, it would be helpful!

[spukrian]

(08-16-2009 12:23 AM)Bloody_Eugene Wrote:  BTW, i'd like to make an excel file that can add letters value and number, but i'm not into Excel that much... can u do it? And even upload the file so that i can download it?
Thank you, it would be helpful!

Well, I don´t know how to translate letters into numbers myself, I´m no Excel expert for sure. But I could upload the excel-file tomorrow.

[Bloody_Eugene]

(08-16-2009 02:18 AM)spukrian Wrote:  Well, I don´t know how to translate letters into numbers myself, I´m no Excel expert for sure. But I could upload the excel-file tomorrow.

Thank you! much appreciated! (I also started my own excel file - but is messy as my mind )

BTW, sorry for my ignorance, just checked "prime numbers" on Wikipedia and "1" is not prime. So my theory doesn't stand up, and now i think I've not found anything. "When my" could be a huge coincidence of letters, nothing more.

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And now, some desktop wallpaper for Thomas...:

[spukrian]

One is not a prime number? Oooops. :redface:

Well, I´m having some computer trouble with the comp I have the excel-file on. But fear not, I´m preparing a new file and will upload here when it´s ready.

EDIT: That screenshot of Excel(?) looks waaaay more advanced than what I got!

edit again: Now the Excel file is ready. I must state that this is just a reference/summary thing, it does not contain any calculations...

I zipped it.

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