Facebook Twitter YouTube Frictional Games | Forum | Privacy Policy | Dev Blog | Dev Wiki | Support | Gametee


Religion
Ghieri Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 2,374
Threads: 8
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 60
RE: Religion

(11-10-2013, 08:59 PM)i3670 Wrote: Would you agree that if fate exists all our actions are meaningless because they're predetermined?

I don't believe in fate, so it's a moot point for me.

[Image: tumblr_n6m5lsQThQ1qc99nxo1_250.gif]
11-10-2013, 09:16 PM
Find
BAndrew Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 732
Threads: 23
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation: 20
RE: Religion

(11-10-2013, 09:16 PM)Ghieri Wrote:
(11-10-2013, 08:59 PM)i3670 Wrote: Would you agree that if fate exists all our actions are meaningless because they're predetermined?

I don't believe in fate, so it's a moot point for me.

It was hypothetical. What if fate exists...

•I have found the answer to the universe and everything, but this sign is too small to contain it.

[Image: k2g44ae]



11-10-2013, 09:18 PM
Find
Ghieri Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 2,374
Threads: 8
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 60
RE: Religion

(11-10-2013, 09:18 PM)BAndrew Wrote:
(11-10-2013, 09:16 PM)Ghieri Wrote:
(11-10-2013, 08:59 PM)i3670 Wrote: Would you agree that if fate exists all our actions are meaningless because they're predetermined?

I don't believe in fate, so it's a moot point for me.

It was hypothetical. What if fate exists...

Well if fate exists then literally nothing I do is going to change where I'm going in life, but seeing as fate is a supernatural belief.(IE, a higher power that isn't proven to exist but apparently has effects on my life) Then I put zero stock into it.

[Image: tumblr_n6m5lsQThQ1qc99nxo1_250.gif]
11-11-2013, 12:06 AM
Find
BAndrew Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 732
Threads: 23
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation: 20
RE: Religion

Quote:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~Epicurus

Clearly God can't be both omnipotent and malevolent as the quote above suggests. So what happens here? Is there something wrong in the reasoning? If yes, what exactly is wrong?

•I have found the answer to the universe and everything, but this sign is too small to contain it.

[Image: k2g44ae]



(This post was last modified: 04-30-2014, 12:50 PM by BAndrew.)
04-29-2014, 09:35 PM
Find
Nice Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 3,812
Threads: 37
Joined: Jan 2012
Reputation: 153
RE: Religion

whyyyy BAndrew whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


Sorry but we cannot change your avatar as the new avatar you specified is too big. The maximum dimensions are 80x80 (width x height)
04-29-2014, 09:39 PM
Find
Kreekakon Offline
Pick a god and pray!

Posts: 3,063
Threads: 70
Joined: Mar 2012
Reputation: 124
RE: Religion

Okay, I'll unlock this thread for now to see if anyone has anything to say about BAndrew's quote up there, because besides the troll face, he is genuinely trying to see what people think about the saying he quoted.

Original Post upon locking thread: Tis thread from ages long past. Tis thread does not have reason to live on.

[Image: Tv0YgQb.gif]
Image by BandyGrass
04-30-2014, 12:43 PM
Find
Nice Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 3,812
Threads: 37
Joined: Jan 2012
Reputation: 153
RE: Religion

(04-29-2014, 09:35 PM)BAndrew Wrote:
Quote:Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
~Epicurus

Clearly God can't be both omnipotent and malevolent as the quote above suggests. So what happens here? Is there something wrong in the reasoning? If yes, what exactly is wrong?

Able and willing, evil comes from our own free will because if God was to smite OR restrict everything that is not "good" then what would we be? machines that could not do anything unless the guy up there moves the strings or "pushes the button".

And this pretty much answers the question about why God doesnt intervene all the time although according to certain witnesses and people he lends a hand sometimes in dire need.

"What's the point?" Well look at it from religious point of view, you live 90 years on Earth (assuming you're lucky enough to live that long) with occasional moments of suffering or another case is that you live few years with extreme suffering and then you die. Now if you look at it religiously, how lenghty is your suffering on Earth compared to eternity in afterlife? And assuming you're a good person you spend that eternity in super paradise with everything nice and dandy.

also another thing i'd like to add (Not a reply to BAndrews post anymore):

People usually accuse that how can a merciful God throw people to Hell aka eternal suffering. Fiery pits, devil poking you with a fork and being continously tortured is an outdated assumption of what Hell looks like. According to teachings, Hell is an empty godless void. It's refered to something horrible because it is godless. So basically it's more of a "You dont want to live with God, you stay without a God"


Sorry but we cannot change your avatar as the new avatar you specified is too big. The maximum dimensions are 80x80 (width x height)
04-30-2014, 01:49 PM
Find
BAndrew Offline
Senior Member

Posts: 732
Threads: 23
Joined: Mar 2010
Reputation: 20
RE: Religion

@Dogfood (and at everyone else interested)

You chose the third possibility (see the quote by Epicurus above) and tried to explain why evil exists. In your answer you mentioned free will.

Quote:Able and willing, evil comes from our own free will because if God was to smite OR restrict everything that is not "good" then what would we be? machines that could not do anything unless the guy up there moves the strings or "pushes the button".
I will prove that free will and God being omniscient (all-knowing) are contradictory.

  1. A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely choose between A and B.
  2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
  3. God knows I will choose A.
  4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have false knowledge.
  5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B
  6. Therefore I do not choose freely. Free will is an illusion.
Contradiction!

Therefore omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

•I have found the answer to the universe and everything, but this sign is too small to contain it.

[Image: k2g44ae]



(This post was last modified: 04-30-2014, 02:17 PM by BAndrew.)
04-30-2014, 02:14 PM
Find
Ghieri Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 2,374
Threads: 8
Joined: May 2012
Reputation: 60
RE: Religion

@Dogfood:
1. All human advancements have been our doing. We've improved ourselves. If you argue for creationism, then you're pretty much accepting that we were created into a cold, ruthless world. God could have created a utopia, and then set about a constitution and democracy and all that good stuff from the very beginning, but he didn't. We were set up to suffer = malevolence.

2. Suffering to get a reward? That logically doesn't exist? With a rulebook that contradicts itself? Sounds like a gameshow where everyone is screwed. Also the reward itself is a bit awkward. Living forever under the Authoritarian rule of a guy that designed us to suffer, and basically spending all of your time praising him? That sounds like hell to me.

3. People call god merciful for not making their lives worse or destroying them outright. That's not mercy, that's narcissism. We only exist to praise and worship god, because he compulsively needs praise. Sure he'll throw us a bone every now and then but he'll also destroy our entire family(job) tell us to kill our family and then jerk us back by saying "Oh no, don't do that bro!"(Abraham) wipe out the entire population and then repopulate it with the same species that pissed him off the first time(noah) And finally when judgement comes he'll basically kill/torture anyone and everyone who's ever pissed him off. Including, but certainly not limited to: Non-christians, gay people, murderers(Unless you did it in the name of Jesus!), Adulterers(Almost everyone alive today), Biologists, rape victims, people who like shellfish, people who've worn cotton and polyester on the same day, Women who spoke in church or took on jobs for themselves, etc. Everyone else will instantly lose their freewill and independence and become tape recorders that play "Praise god" on loop for the rest of existence.

And Satan's supposed to be the bad guy, even though the only thing he really did was introduce us to knowledge, which was apparently our biggest sin.

[Image: tumblr_n6m5lsQThQ1qc99nxo1_250.gif]
04-30-2014, 02:21 PM
Find
Nice Offline
Posting Freak

Posts: 3,812
Threads: 37
Joined: Jan 2012
Reputation: 153
RE: Religion

(04-30-2014, 02:14 PM)BAndrew Wrote: @Dogfood (and at everyone else interested)

You chose the third possibility (see the quote by Epicurus above) and tried to explain why evil exists. In your answer you mentioned free will.

Quote:Able and willing, evil comes from our own free will because if God was to smite OR restrict everything that is not "good" then what would we be? machines that could not do anything unless the guy up there moves the strings or "pushes the button".
I will prove that free will and God being omniscient (all-knowing) are contradictory.

  1. A being with free will, given two options A and B, can freely choose between A and B.
  2. God is omniscient (all-knowing).
  3. God knows I will choose A.
  4. God cannot be wrong, since an omniscient being cannot have false knowledge.
  5. From 3 and 4, I will choose A and cannot choose B
  6. Therefore I do not choose freely. Free will is an illusion.
Contradiction!

Therefore omniscience and free will cannot co-exist.

But God does not dictate which option the person will choose, he just knows what decision that person will make.

A very plain example:

Dogs have free will, yes? Sounds a bit silly but a dog without its master will choose on its own on how to behave. Now imagine there's a hungry stray dog, if someone was to put a delicious, juicy piece of meat near the dog, is the dog not going to come and eat it? I know what the dog is going to do, it's obvious, it's how the dogs behave.

maybe a bit silly example but what I'm trying to say is according to my definitions -- Free will means that someone does whatever he pleases and reacts to a situation however he chooses to.

But despite that, we are very predictable to the point that just a regular human might know what someone will choose/react/do. I dont know the english expression because i'm foreign but I watched a show on discovery about someone that studies human behaviour (dont know how people like him are called) But anyways, he managed to figure out what colour someone might pick, what number yet he is no God.

and getting back to your example:

God knows that you will choose A instead of B because:

He has knowledge about how your brain works, about everything you did in the past and just plainly said - He knows you like his own pocket so therefore he knows your reaction just as I know how the dog will react to that meat.


EDIT:

Aldigi
1. I do not follow creationism, trust me, the christianity you have there in America *cough* westboro baptist church *cough* and the likes are being laughed at by any decent christian that can be found in America and by just whole Europe in general.


1 You didnt provide a single contradiction. Bible is not the book of rules, it's a guideline. He designed us to suffer? Suffering is a side effect of breaking the things that bible recommends to you. Lets see what the bible says: Respect your friends, family so that you may live long, dont steal, dont kill, dont hurt anyone, be forgiving and dont give in to greed. If everyone followed those "guides" would there be some sort of suffering? Think about it.

2. If you'd really hate to spend your eternity living under some "authoritian guy" well that's exactly what Hell is for. Before you call me cruel and start throwing stones at me, move back and check my previous post of definition of hell. It's a place of emptiness and no God so that even those that dont want anything to do with him get to be happy in the end. Who says that you must spend all the time praising him? you're completely over exaggarating, it is RECOMMENDED that you visit the church atleast once a week, a church which is 40 minutes long...Yes.. Truly your whole life thrown away.

3. again "We only exist to praise and worship god, because he compulsively needs praise." who on earth told you that? God is not called merciful for the reason you provided, he's called merciful because he decided to "forgive" everyone when Jesus was crucified. You're quoting old testament my friend, ask a Jew about that matter. Catholics dont follow whatever teaching is there.

aaand once again, those "nasty" people will be tortured in just 1 way and that is to live in an empty, godless place.

Stahp listening to westboro


Sorry but we cannot change your avatar as the new avatar you specified is too big. The maximum dimensions are 80x80 (width x height)
(This post was last modified: 04-30-2014, 02:51 PM by Nice.)
04-30-2014, 02:34 PM
Find




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)