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Work in progress In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod
AGP Offline
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#61
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(07-23-2014, 08:40 PM)Carnivorous Jellybean Wrote: There's no harm in taking other people's suggestions or admitting that somone might actually have a good idea. Saying "thanks, we'll consider, BUT you don't understand and I doubt you will until you play the mod" is going to lose quite a few people.

That is not at all what Wapez said.

He politely responded saying he would take it into consideration, and IF you don't understand, you will soon.

The matches will be something more than likely worked on, I would imagine, more thoroughly after during/beta-testing, as its use depends primarily on reaction from players (how often players use them, whether or not the players find them useful, etc.).

So for now, I suggest we leave the matches alone for now (the devs have got more than enough feedback on that currently). Smile

(This post was last modified: 07-23-2014, 09:14 PM by AGP.)
07-23-2014, 09:13 PM
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CarnivorousJelly Offline
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#62
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

His response, to me, sounded like "I'll consider it (not really, I'm going to keep it the way it is) and, if you don't understand my decision, playing the mod will enlighten you (I have no reasons to back this up except saying that you don't understand me)." the stuff in brackets being how I understood it.

Certainly the matches are something that do need a lot more work, but these are things that we're giving feedback on now, things that can be fixed before beta-testing, so time can be better spent with the beta testers on things that really matter and not on something that can be observed just through a video. As I mentioned earlier, players probably won't use these matches. This is just from observing the general comments towards the matches in this thread. Sure, it's cool that they made a portable light-source that wasn't a lantern, I totally understand the whole "we want to limit lighting" thing, but to have their matches be less useful than an already-there game mechanic is a little careless.

Regardless, I'd still like to hear Wapez's response. Honestly, I'm quite curious why he hasn't given a solid reason for using the matches over night-vision. If you were working on the mod's mechanics, I'd take your word for it but, from what I can tell, you're not.

[Image: quote_by_rueppells_fox-d9ciupp.png]
(This post was last modified: 07-23-2014, 10:23 PM by CarnivorousJelly.)
07-23-2014, 10:21 PM
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Streetboat Offline
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#63
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

consider this: i only criticize because i see so much potential in what you already have, and really want to see it come to fruition to the best possible degree. if you had a shitty mod going on here, i wouldn't even comment. but you got 2 walls of text from me, so that should give you an idea of how much i want this to succeed. : )

(07-23-2014, 09:35 AM)victorkim890(KimmyChimmy) Wrote: cant find a loop script on engine page?
also i dont get how to use variable

here is an example of a for loop:
for(int i=1;i<=159;i++)FadeLightTo("PointLight_"+i, 0, 0, 0, 0, -1, 0);

it finds every pointlight between "PointLight_1" and "PointLight_159" and it fades their light to black. this is only one example. you can apply it to absolutely anything. in order to use it, you put for(int i=[your first number in the set];i<=[end of the set];i++) before whatever function you want it to play. and within that function, erase the number in the name of the entity you want to affect and add +i after the quotes. for example, "PointLight_1" becomes "PointLight+"+i. understand?

[Image: signature-2.png]
(This post was last modified: 07-24-2014, 03:51 AM by Streetboat.)
07-24-2014, 03:48 AM
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Wapez Offline
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#64
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(07-23-2014, 08:40 PM)Carnivorous Jellybean Wrote: Wapez, I'm pretty sure Streetboat understands what you're trying to do. Those matches, which I'm sure you've put quite a bit of time in to creating and perfecting, will be completely useless because the game already has a mechanic for viewing small details (and trust me, they're not unnoticeable unless you have something where those details only show up when a match is being used). That mechanic's called night vision and it already works much better than those matches do.

I doubt many people are actually going to use those matches because they're utterly useless. No, that's not intended to offend, they're really just that bad right now. Their radius is smaller than that of night vision and, to make matters worse, they cause the player to stumble around in pitch black. I'm sure you wouldn't want the time taken to create the matches become a complete waste. Why not at least try doing what Streetboat suggested, take a look at it, if it seems like an abomination, then go back to your version.

There's no harm in taking other people's suggestions or admitting that someone might actually have a good idea. Saying "thanks, we'll consider, BUT you don't understand and I doubt you will until you play the mod" is going to lose quite a few people. Consider it like this: my mapping's total crap (solid white billboards, perfectly square room, no boxlight, no pointlights, just a desk with a lantern on it), so you suggest that perhaps I add some colour to the lighting, tone down the billboards, experiment with pointlights, and detail a little more. If I respond with "k thanks, I'll keep that in mind - but you don't understand the feelings I'm trying to make for this room and the lighting was intentional. Maybe you'll understand when you play my mod" you'd probably be fairly disgruntled, maybe you'd think that I'm completely clueless, that you'll never try giving me feedback again because I'm blind to criticism, or my mod's not going to be anywhere near as good as it could have been if I'd just listen once in a while. Either way, I'd bet you won't feel positive about my mod and you certainly wouldn't play it (unless you're just looking to send a wall of critique at someone).

Okay, let's put it like this:

I know what night vision is. I also know how much light the matches provide - I designed them. Therefore, having someone telling me that they will be useless, when they in fact haven't been useless for neither me or anyone else who played it, is not something I feel very welcoming.

However, I do realize what I'm being told here. There should be more light coming from the match, cause it should give you better vision than it already does, since there's already light from the night vision. (Alternatively reducing night vision).

For me and my testers, the matches do make a difference. Whether it's minimal or huge doesn't really matter, it DOES make a difference. This may be hard to realize by just watching the video, and in that case I apologize for misleading anyone.

So the argument here is really about how big this difference should be. After going through light design in our about 15 levels, we found an estimate that we thought was good in general throughout the mod. As streetboat let me know what he was thinking about this, and even gave me a few suggestions, I told him that we will take this into consideration. And that's very important to note - we will take A LOT of opinions into consideration. As many as we can get a hold of, as soon as we release the demo. So until we actually get all these opinions, I do not want to promise anything to anyone, as I'm unsure of what the majority of the players will think. I did not in any way mean to discard anyone's feedback, and I am sorry if that's what it seemed like.

I also explained the decisions we had been making on the subject up until then. This was not about telling streetboat he was wrong, cause there has never been a right or wrong. I might have misunderstood what kind of result he wanted from the matches, and therefore said stuff that didn't really make sense. I was just trying to explain my own thoughts on the subject though, as frankly this is pretty useful when receiving feedback.

Lastly I promised that he would understand what they are needed for when he plays the mod. Without spoiling anything, I'll just say that they will play a major role, regardless of how they are used just to provide normal light. This wasn't meant to discard anything either, and I do apologize for anything I said that gave this impression.

Onto the actual match-function again, if my explanations haven't been good enough yet, I'll say that both the sanity system and the night vision will have huge changes. This is not something we will implement until after beta, but it will happen.

Also, again, please keep this thread on the subject. Getting help with scripts can be done in specific threads.

Founder & Legally Accountable Publisher of Red Line Games.
Environment & Gameplay Designer and Scripter.
http://moddb.com/mods/in-lucys-eyes
(This post was last modified: 07-26-2014, 08:02 PM by Wapez.)
07-26-2014, 08:00 PM
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CarnivorousJelly Offline
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#65
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

I know you know what night vision is; I wasn’t doubting that – only whether you’d taken it in to consideration. Although, saying someone’s constructive criticism's not welcoming, is shooting yourself in the foot, isn’t it? There’s no way you’re going to improve if you just tell everyone with a less-than-positive opinion that they’re not welcome.

Onto the actual topic being discussed at the moment, I think you may have missed part of what I wrote (there were two separate posts):
(07-23-2014, 10:21 PM)Carnivorous Jellybean Wrote: As I mentioned earlier, players probably won't use these matches. This is just from observing the general comments towards the matches in this thread. […] I totally understand the whole "we want to limit lighting" thing, but to have their matches be less useful than an already-there game mechanic is a little careless. […] I'm quite curious why he hasn't given a solid reason for using the matches over night-vision.
(07-23-2014, 08:40 PM)Carnivorous Jellybean Wrote: (unless you have something where those details only show up when a match is being used).

Perhaps the matches, to you and your testers, appear to make a difference because you expect them to make a difference. You could always use two screenshots and compare the actual light values with an unbiased person (so someone who hasn’t read this thread or been told about the matches providing more/less light than their alternative), but I digress. You mentioned that they are playing a major role aside from being mini portable candles, which is what I was asking about. Honestly, most of this essay-writing could have been avoided by saying “the purpose of these matches isn’t just light; they’re going to be part of the game’s mechanics, too. I can’t elaborate more because it would spoil part of the game.”

I have another question though.
(07-26-2014, 08:00 PM)Wapez Wrote: we will take A LOT of opinions into consideration. As many as we can get a hold of, as soon as we release the demo. So until we actually get all these opinions, I do not want to promise anything to anyone, as I'm unsure of what the majority of the players will think
[…]
Onto the actual match-function again, if my explanations haven't been good enough yet, I'll say that both the sanity system and the night vision will have huge changes. This is not something we will implement until after beta, but it will happen.
Why not take some of this feedback in to consideration now? If you’re getting it this early, it would be better to mitigate the issues before releasing your demo/beta. That way, your demo can be a little more polished and you won’t have to hear the same issues being raised over and over – not doing this may risk missing other flaws in your game, because the testers were too focused on an issue you already knew about.

Also, this is extremely relevant.

[Image: quote_by_rueppells_fox-d9ciupp.png]
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2014, 07:25 AM by CarnivorousJelly.)
07-26-2014, 09:29 PM
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Nice Offline
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#66
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

wher cn i donate for dis project


Sorry but we cannot change your avatar as the new avatar you specified is too big. The maximum dimensions are 80x80 (width x height)
07-26-2014, 10:40 PM
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Daemian Offline
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#67
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

I like it (matches feature), maybe you applied it in a way that players will prefer to use it.
What Maya version did you use for the arm animation? (Juras did it? =p)

07-27-2014, 04:14 AM
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Juras Offline
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#68
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

@Dogfood We don't want your dog food donations! We would though if we had a dog...

@Robosprog



@Amn I always use Maya 2011 when making animations for HPL2 Smile

Co-Founder & Lead Art Director of Red Line Games
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http://jurasbatas.deviantart.com
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2014, 11:23 AM by Juras.)
07-27-2014, 11:18 AM
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Zatchie Offline
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#69
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

Calm yo' ass down robosprog.

Founder of Frunken Productions. Map designer and 3D and texture artist
http://frunkenproductions.com/
http://youtube.com/frunkenproductions
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2014, 01:11 PM by Zatchie.)
07-27-2014, 12:40 PM
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Wapez Offline
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#70
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(07-26-2014, 09:29 PM)Carnivorous Jellybean Wrote: I know you know what night vision is; I wasn’t doubting that – only whether you’d taken it in to consideration. Although, saying someone’s constructive criticism's not welcoming, is shooting yourself in the foot, isn’t it?

Wapez Wrote:is not something I feel very welcoming.

I didn't mean that it isn't welcome. Just that it feels kinda unfair when I've seen the difference myself. But yes, you might be right with your theory about us seeing the difference because we were looking for it, even though some testers didn't know about the matches. So I will, once again, go through it to make sure that it comes into use.

Also, you're right. I should have responded to the criticism in a more open-minded way. I did not realize it could be seen the way you explained until afterwards. Thank you for pointing this out and thank you for linking that video. It really opened my eyes watching it.

I will still wait with making changes to the match until the testers have sent their reports. Not only because I'm drowning in other work to do in this mod, but also because the night vision's changes hasn't taken place yet. I'd like the current demonstration of the match to be sort of a teaser - it's new, it's raw and it's unpolished, and we just show the first version of a very cool feature.

I'm very interested in other people's opinions now, and I will make my best efforts to take use of every single piece of criticism. Let me know about anything regarding how this match should be tweaked, and we will put it all together to make the finest match Amnesia has ever seen and will ever see. Of course, we will release this match to the public after releasing our mod, along with the script to replace it with the lantern and making it work like a match should work. So in the end, every little helping hand will turn out positively for everyone in this modding community.

Thank you, especially to Streetboat and Jelly. I also owe you an apology. From now on I will have a completely different approach to your suggestions. So let them roll in!

Founder & Legally Accountable Publisher of Red Line Games.
Environment & Gameplay Designer and Scripter.
http://moddb.com/mods/in-lucys-eyes
(This post was last modified: 07-27-2014, 01:04 PM by Wapez.)
07-27-2014, 01:03 PM
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