Notch bought Amnesia!

[Sel]

I like to farm

Glad you're enjoying your skinner box

and play online with my friends and co-workers so we can do it all together. Can you do that in a level editor?

Yes, it's called collaboration over the internet.

I design videogames

The fact that your avatar is a promotional photograph of the worst musical performer in recent history does not help your position. Mocking Spooder also does nothing to help your point when his argument is actually very logical.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how exactly is saying I'm a game designer and I like bad game mechanics qualifies as logical. Some people like smoking, and world of warcraft, try to tell me either of those are good.

Additionally, everything else he listed has been done by loads of other games, and better.

ps: it's adorable that you're attacking me for my musical tastes just because you don't share them, almost as cute as everyone going after me because I don't like a game they adore~

[Som1Lse]

I'm sorry, I don't understand how exactly is saying I'm a game designer and I like bad game mechanics logical. Some people like smoking, and world of warcraft, try to tell me either of those are good.

World of Warcraft is a fine game.
A lot of people play it.
It is fun to play that's it.
If it wasn't for the "Pay Per Month"-thingy I would myself.

And although smoking is totally unhealthy it is also really hard to stop.
Have you ever smoked?
Do you know how hard it is to stop?
And some people like smoking anyway.
The point is people are different.

And Minecraft hasn't got bad game mechanics.
You obviously fail to understand gameplay.

Additionally, everything else he listed has been done by loads of other games, and better.

And?
Everything in Minecraft might have been done before, maybe even better.
But it has never been combined this way making it unique.

ps: it's adorable that you're attacking me for my musical tastes just because you don't share them, almost as cute as everyone going after me because I don't like a game they adore~

Which is obviously completely right.
I might not be a Ke$ha fan myself, but I don't hate others because they are.

Although we are not really after you.
We just say that we disagree, and why we do so.

[Sexbad]

I like to farm

Glad you're enjoying your skinner box

and play online with my friends and co-workers so we can do it all together. Can you do that in a level editor?

Yes, it's called collaboration over the internet.

I design videogames

The fact that your avatar is a promotional photograph of the worst musical performer in recent history does not help your position. Mocking Spooder also does nothing to help your point when his argument is actually very logical.

I'm sorry, I don't understand how exactly is saying I'm a game designer and I like bad game mechanics logical. Some people like smoking, and world of warcraft, try to tell me either of those are good.

Additionally, everything else he listed has been done by loads of other games, and better.

ps: it's adorable that you're attacking me for my musical tastes just because you don't share them, almost as cute as everyone going after me because I don't like a game they adore~

You're still going by the argument that it is only a dumbed down level editor and nothing more, while he clearly argues that it is not and uses evidence to support his point.

Really? Because I find the creative mode of minecraft incredibly boring, it is JUST building. (IE: what you claim the entire game to be about) I like the exploration, the mining for ore so you can make stuff. I like making a fortress so I can survive and sometimes leaving the door open so I can kick some zombie ass. I like to farm and play online with my friends and co-workers so we can do it all together. Can you do that in a level editor?

I design videogames, so I do not lack the knowledge or skill to use a level editor. Hell, I have written level editors. (cause im a programmer, i dont got time to make all the levels for my games)

First, he states that he finds the creative mode (which is the free portion, basically a level editor) boring. However, he then states that the edition of Minecraft that you have to pay for is more focused around survival. The fact that you can edit the world then only enhances the survival gameplay, because instead of just going around building penises, you are strategically constructing things in order to defend yourself and survive.

In Amnesia, one of your goals is to overcome monsters and survive. The environment around you is pre-planned. Compare this to Minecraft, where this goal remains untouched, yet the environment is fully manipulable. So, because you can fully manipulate the environment, that kills the exploration, survival, and reward and makes it entirely just a level editor? What if Amnesia was full of larger objects that you could move around and use for makeshift shelter? That would be fundamentally the same gameplay mechanic, the only difference being the indestructability of the walls. By your logic, that would make the game into a level editor. I didn't know giving the player large amounts of choice was the same thing as making him the game designer.

Additionally, everything else he listed has been done by loads of other games, and better.

I don't know about that. Minecraft is the first game I've ever heard of that features heavy manipulation of the environment and farming and cooperative play in order to survive an unforgiving wilderness. There are some games that feature separate aspects of gameplay that Minecraft uses, such as Red Faction with environmental manipulation or STALKER with surviving against an unforgiving wilderness, but nothing has ever combined the two.

"I design videogames" is what smart people like to call "ethos." When taken out of context, it seems insignificant, but he uses it in order to prove how he knows his way around video games and the construction thereof. I too have used various level editors, and none of them have focused on survival. Rather, they are sterile programs in which you place objects in specific locations in order to build a game world. Since Minecraft has a randomly generated world, what, eight times the surface area of the Earth?, the player does a minimal amount of construction considering how much is already built.

Keep in mind, Spooder hates creative mode. Just building things sterilely, as in a level editor, is in his opinion boring. This implies that there is something special about survival mode. Indeed, survival mode is different. It is separate from being simply a level editor because there are other things that you can do, and even must do, in order to not fail.

[Sel]

World of Warcraft is a fine game.
A lot of people play it.
It is fun to play that's it.
If it wasn't for the "Pay Per Month"-thingy I would myself.

And although smoking is totally unhealthy it is also really hard to stop.
Have you ever smoked?
Do you know how hard it is to stop?
And some people like smoking anyway.
The point is people are different.

And Minecraft hasn't got bad game mechanics.
You obviously fail to understand gameplay.

Or I understand it significantly better than you seem to and find any use of skinner box mechanics despicable?

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/30...design.php

And?
Everything in Minecraft might have been done before, maybe even better.
But it has never been combined this way making it unique.

You can combine soap with your lunch in all kinds of creative ways, it'll still taste terrible.

Although we are not really after you.
We just say that we disagree, and why we do so.

Which would be fine, if the why part was covered, but so far all I've gotten are straw man arguments like, oh it all comes down to taste, and other responses of the sort, and honestly, until I see an argument with the least bit of thought put into it as to why I'm wrong, I'm not going to bother responding anymore.

[Sexbad]

Ooh! Ooh! Now do me!

[DIGI Byte]

Come people, lets huddle and look away from the non-believer Sel :S

minecraft does not have "bad game mechanics"

In fact, I know several games that DO, And they are just terrible, those games never get spread around like wild fire, they never get publicity other then a shitty review and often are seen in the backwater online stores and you most likely will never see torrents, hack or tools for them

[Sexbad]

Actually, I have seen tools, hacks, and torrents for Call of Duty and Gears of War.

ohhhhhhhhhh

Anyway, Sel, I suggest you say that you dislike Minecraft because its gameplay does not appeal to you, which is perfectly acceptable. However, stating something completely false about it (saying it is nothing more than a level editor) is not.

[DIGI Byte]

Lol dude, call of duty and gears of war, they dont have bad gameplay mechanics and im a fan of gears of war and the original CoD games
that's just your preferences, not bad mechanics

I'm talking about bad games like
"Nation Red"
"Iron grip: Warlord"
"Alien breed:impact"
"Section 8"

Games that make you feel nasty and horrible inside after you play them, some aren't as bad as others, but you try to forget about them

[Sexbad]

I love Nation Red. I'd like to know what mechanic about it is bad, because it certainly seems to be a well-constructed horde shooter with a lot of variety in its perks to me.

I did enjoy the earlier CoDs, but I'm talking about the newer ones. They contain very, very bad gameplay mechanics. The enemies literally have no AI. None at all. Every single thing they do is scripted, and since most of the scripting focuses on having them stick to their cover with fancy motion-captured goodness, all they end up doing is aimbotting and grenade spamming you.

I probably should have said God of War instead of Gears of War (I haven't actually played that much of the latter) but the former is a PS3 game so you can't pirate or hack it as easily. But fuck, it focuses around the worst gameplay element of them all: the quick-time event.

[hollowleviathan]

"skinner box mechanics" apparently meaning limiting the speed at which individual players and/or a realm community at large acquires loot by raid lockouts and delayed or random chance drops instead of certain reward.

How this is "despicable" is beyond me, if all loot in adventure games was certain to drop under certain circumstances, then there is no excitement in attempting to earn it, or much meaning in having it, since it's a certainty.

In World of Warcraft the chance that you simply will not get the drop due to the long end of the statistical bell curve is offset by having multiple options for each gearslot drop from different places, offer points for each boss beaten which can be spent at a vendor for replacement parts for anything that just won't drop, quest rewards, which ARE certain loot, and the world drops which, for a large enough population, will always be available on the in-game auction house at a predictable price.

All this is a sophisticated and reasonable system, in vast contrast to, say, Ragnarok Online, where very low droprates off of very rare monsters is the norm for the best loot, and is worth reproach.

You can combine soap with your lunch in all kinds of creative ways, it'll still taste terrible.

but so far all I've gotten are straw man arguments

Careful.

So, your entire reasoning on why Minecraft is bad is because you say it's a Skinner box? I can't say that really needs disproving, since it's almost a willful misunderstanding of the whole point of Minecraft. The goal of the game is definitely not to hoard rare earths and diamonds, which are not difficult to find.

You can't really justify dismissing the game as a Skinner box simply because you do not have access to any and all materials in-game without effort. Acquiring them is simply delayed, not rare drop. It's not difficult or risky to take 10 minutes to tunnel to the bedrock and find ample amounts of any resource.