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(06-23-2011, 08:41 PM)BlueFury Wrote: [ -> ]what i would like to see is something in forests, ya know?
think about it
a physological horror game in a forest, sandbox style. More survival!
wouldn't be as great as amnesia, but still.
with scary creatures & small houses placed in the forest

I was hoping this would be what Alan Wake was, but it's a linear action game that isn't scary at all. Sad
To quote myself from over here:
Quote:I'm glad I'm not the only one who would like to see you make a non-horror murder mystery. My suggestion is to create a branching story line that can fit multiple characters, then create variations for each character. Each time a player goes through the game, a different scenario is chosen, but with many randomized elements (the exact selection of clues, where they are to be found, who tries to kill you and why, who are the red herrings that the clues come just short of incriminating, what events happen as a result of a certain triggers, etc). The similarity between all the scenarios will keep the player guessing through dozens of play-throughs, thus resulting in great replay value. Also include some mild action. For instance, the detective carries a small revolver that holds 5 bullets on him at all times for self protection. The villain gets desperate to get rid of him before the truth comes out, and tries to kill him in the greenhouse. The result is a small shoot-out with each party only having less than a dozen shots, and little time as the shots are heard and the people of the mansion called the police, picked up their own guns, and are coming to put an end to the disturbance. You can catch or kill the criminal, which may or may not solve the main mystery, or he can escape or even kill you. If he escapes he may be caught immediately be caught if you saw his face, but even if not new clues will become available as any potential witnesses are questioned and the criminal would have trouble with his alibi.
Umineko no Naku Koro ni?
Amnesia 2 would be nice
A new game in the Chinese culture,for me would be very nice Big Grin.
A new game that's maybe outside, with some long grass for things to hide in and that. Possibly some nice chase sequences. But most importantly it needs to beat amnesia in scaring the **** out of people Tongue
The new game will most likely include outdoor areas. They have added terrain and grass rendering to the HPL3 engine upgrade.
dead space, except better Wink
Well, i'd like to suggest something similar to what was said by me here
http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thread-8966.html

In short, i think they are masters at doing the HORROR and it doesnt matter what setting they choose. Obviously its going to be challenging to make another 19 century horror game different from amnesia so that people who obviously either played amnesia or are going to play it afterwards dont say "we saw this already". Maybe another setting is a plus then. Maybe not.

What i'd like to suggest is to refine the game design a bit:

1) Dont make game mechanics that obvious so players can feel safe when they should not in the setting.
Don't make that obvious linear spaces or corridors where player has nothing to fear "because i know that since i'm in a dead end, no monster can be around the corner, because i'd have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide, and it will be impossible to progress the game, therefore i'm safe as long as i am going through this corridor".
Like the one where you open the metal trap door and drop down. Or the one where it says you not to stray.
You KNOW you're safe here. And it is a BAD thing.

Now imagine this - you go into next location, the door behind you wont budge now, well, typical... you advance through a tunnel, and then around the corner there is a fking monster! AND HE SAW YOU! Now you have to run back, KNOWING you have to way to survive since its a dead end. You run right to the door you came in through, in hope it will budge now, it wont. You click the door, click click click, nothing. You turn around, the monster is closing in, you can hear him, there he comes around from the corner, he's going to kill you... and in the last moment something happens (ceiliing falls on him, you fall into a pit, monster is distracted so you can get around him and run forward).
THIS would be real HORROR. And this would teach players NEVER to feel safe.

2) Don't make it that obvious to us what to do!
A door is locked. Maybe a key is around. (actually you get a straightforward message in your mementos "get key" - how does Daniel know there is one?) What if its not? What if it rusted years ago? What if it was taken and placed at the other side of the door? What if the true way forward is to find something to break the door with, or lure a monster so that he breaks the door, or find a way around this door?
Without this feeling that it is all a set up scenario for player to go through, the game will feel MUCH MORE IMMERSIVE.
Let players pick up garbage into their inventory they will never have a use for. Make them THINK what is more precious to carry around, dirty books, rocks or oil cans?
Leave keys around that either deteriorate when you try to use them or dont fit ANY door or fit the door you already passed through.
Make more than one way to get past a "roadblock" or at least make it so the solution isnt the obvious one (obvious one - find key - unobvious - disturb a monster around so he breaks out).
Make us feel this mansion, this castle, this "whatever" wasnt made specifically for us players to walk from Start to End, but is actually a place that lives (lived) its own fine life. I mean imagine you broke into someone's appartament, wouldnt you find a key to the front door somewhere inside? Does the appartament care that since you are already in it shouldnt give you an opportunity to have the key to the door since you have no need for that key anymore?

3) Make scripting less obvious!
Easiest way to do it: Delay the scripting! Simple as that.
I know you cannot make truly random events happen. Since that would require alot of playtesting and would still feel like scripting + a chance for it to happen.
But a simple delay would do. Player can very well match together event of him approaching the door and the door opened by the wind. He does understand that this door WAS SCRIPTED to open when he comes close.
But if for example said door would be set to open 10 seconds after something happens, like 10 seconds after player enters a big room, or enters the room where the door is in, you would get totally random and natural event. It might open when you come to inspect it. It might open while you are not looking at it, and frighten you. It might open when you already PASSED it and that would seriously frighten you since you'd think a monster is chasing!
Same goes for quests. You ALWAYS know that something WILL happen ONLY after you complete the quest. If you have to insert 3 rods, nothing serious will happen when you insert the first of the second or if you meddle around with the rods in your inventory. If you see a quest item lying on the table, nothing special will happen until you pick it up.
This was known to us since times of Doom (and maybe before) when there were monster closets that would open when you pick a weapon, powerup or a key.
Just simple delay would make it much more reallistic. Like, 20 seconds after the player enters a room with all quest items needed and if he doesnt leave it immediately (meaning he didnt come to complete the quest yet, or he thinks he forgot something) or if he focuses on the quest finishing apparatus for more than x seconds, the script triggers. This would make it TOTALLY unexpected to the player and thus more frightening and fun in the end. Like, you're thinking you are totally safe until you plug that rod, and then bam, zombie starts breaking into the room! You are totally NOT ready for that.
Or you have done the quest, fixed the lift, and nothing happens. You think you are safe. And then BOO - something happens when you already though you're safe for now.

4) Possibly make it less linear or at least feel less linear.
Possibly make player choose and pay for his choice. Like he may be rewarded for paying attention by having an easier time fighting creatures or solving puzzles. For example, player might skip the latern or some kind of item that could help him later.
Also, maybe offer some sort of non-linearity. You could even re-use the content, for example, player has to choose the location to go next, but he would face the same general kind of puzzle. Or, he would choose where to go next and choose the next puzzle he faces, but then in the next decision, he would get the second puzze he didnt take at first.
Or player would have to choose to go one of the two ways, but later he would return to the same place and have to go the other way since the first way is now caved in/broken/whatever.

5) Dont let player know he was toyed around with.
When i understood that monster in the level before the water beast was a fake that despawned after he showed himself to me on the screen going from left to right, it was SO anticlimatic. If you show player that a monster is lurking, and choose to despawn him, at least offer an explanation where the monster had gone. Like, a broken window, or a hole carved in the wall... Even if that monster finally ambushes the player and turns out to be an illusion only, thats better than understanding he DESPAWNED. He isnt there. You were safe all the way because devs just chose to spook you a bit with a false boo.

6) Make player life actually worth something.
To respawn 10 seconds from the place of death is just.... countradictive to the point of the horror game. Of course, this can make another problem - player being unable to go through the game since he cannot manage to get past some location where he always gets killed eventually, this would just annoy the player not make him feel better if he'd do same and same work over and over again just to fail in the end and start again.
Maybe a more thrilling death animation would do? Maybe some sort of loss of some resourcee when you die? I dont know, developers of such great horror games know it better. But it should be there.
Also, idea to offer hints on death is GREAT but make them much more complex. Maybe make a less complex hint each time until at 4 or 5th fail player gets a direct order how to do it (dont stay in water etc)

7) Avoid cliche. Please, the "you will get captured once in the game" thing is just BAD.
Its like every game you play where you have an inventory and some sort of progress and some sort of combat (or evading combat in amnesia) you KNOW there is a chance you are going to be caught by a script (and in some games have to reclaim your inventory)! Its just too obvious it sucks.
Moreover, it is NEVER done right. I mean it. Never. Take any game, almost any (i made some list at the topic above) - its very hard to make capture feel truly unavoidable, truly fitting the plot here.
In some games you can avoid it alltogether (including amnesia) and then you have to SURRENDER yourself to the script to go on with the plot, this is RIDICULOUS!
In some games you can force the script to submit to acknowledge cheating, for example, you can barricade the way into the room where you are to be caught by an enemy coming into the room and then he would come without making noise since he was spawned after the barricade, not came after you as he tells you in teh cutscene. Or you can mine the entrance to the room where capture takes place (like half life) so enemies who'd come to capture you would surely explode. Or you can trigger the script and get out of the trap like in Duke Nukem 3D e1m2. Or your character gives up to an ambush in a situation where due to game mechanics he HAD a chance of winning the fight. Etc.
This is just one thing. But a serious one.

-----------------

Aside from that, just keep up the good work!

Maybe add more puzzles. True puzzes that make you use your brain. Maybe make very hardcore puzzles either optional or leave hints around to help clueless player, like in KOTOR.
Maybe add back SOME sort of combat (so you could say win versus lesser foes but had to run away from more powerful ones, or in different areas of the game you could combat one kind of enemy but were helpless against other kind).
Maybe add more rpg/resource management like hunger, thirst, and need to tend to your wounds (not simple "drink pot")
Maybe add more outdoor areas - forests can be VERY scary especially with creatures lurking....

We need more games where player doesnt play to win, consume and throw away, but actually immerse in the story, feel the character you control... Where player comes to the game to experience a feeling, not beat the game on said diff level and get achivements.
(07-05-2011, 11:59 AM)Istrebitel Wrote: [ -> ]Well, i'd like to suggest something similar to what was said by me here
http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thread-8966.html

In short, i think they are masters at doing the HORROR and it doesnt matter what setting they choose. Obviously its going to be challenging to make another 19 century horror game different from amnesia so that people who obviously either played amnesia or are going to play it afterwards dont say "we saw this already". Maybe another setting is a plus then. Maybe not.

What i'd like to suggest is to refine the game design a bit:

1) Dont make game mechanics that obvious so players can feel safe when they should not in the setting.
Don't make that obvious linear spaces or corridors where player has nothing to fear "because i know that since i'm in a dead end, no monster can be around the corner, because i'd have nowhere to run and nowhere to hide, and it will be impossible to progress the game, therefore i'm safe as long as i am going through this corridor".
Like the one where you open the metal trap door and drop down. Or the one where it says you not to stray.
You KNOW you're safe here. And it is a BAD thing.

Now imagine this - you go into next location, the door behind you wont budge now, well, typical... you advance through a tunnel, and then around the corner there is a fking monster! AND HE SAW YOU! Now you have to run back, KNOWING you have to way to survive since its a dead end. You run right to the door you came in through, in hope it will budge now, it wont. You click the door, click click click, nothing. You turn around, the monster is closing in, you can hear him, there he comes around from the corner, he's going to kill you... and in the last moment something happens (ceiliing falls on him, you fall into a pit, monster is distracted so you can get around him and run forward).
THIS would be real HORROR. And this would teach players NEVER to feel safe.

2) Don't make it that obvious to us what to do!
A door is locked. Maybe a key is around. (actually you get a straightforward message in your mementos "get key" - how does Daniel know there is one?) What if its not? What if it rusted years ago? What if it was taken and placed at the other side of the door? What if the true way forward is to find something to break the door with, or lure a monster so that he breaks the door, or find a way around this door?
Without this feeling that it is all a set up scenario for player to go through, the game will feel MUCH MORE IMMERSIVE.
Let players pick up garbage into their inventory they will never have a use for. Make them THINK what is more precious to carry around, dirty books, rocks or oil cans?
Leave keys around that either deteriorate when you try to use them or dont fit ANY door or fit the door you already passed through.
Make more than one way to get past a "roadblock" or at least make it so the solution isnt the obvious one (obvious one - find key - unobvious - disturb a monster around so he breaks out).
Make us feel this mansion, this castle, this "whatever" wasnt made specifically for us players to walk from Start to End, but is actually a place that lives (lived) its own fine life. I mean imagine you broke into someone's appartament, wouldnt you find a key to the front door somewhere inside? Does the appartament care that since you are already in it shouldnt give you an opportunity to have the key to the door since you have no need for that key anymore?

3) Make scripting less obvious!
Easiest way to do it: Delay the scripting! Simple as that.
I know you cannot make truly random events happen. Since that would require alot of playtesting and would still feel like scripting + a chance for it to happen.
But a simple delay would do. Player can very well match together event of him approaching the door and the door opened by the wind. He does understand that this door WAS SCRIPTED to open when he comes close.
But if for example said door would be set to open 10 seconds after something happens, like 10 seconds after player enters a big room, or enters the room where the door is in, you would get totally random and natural event. It might open when you come to inspect it. It might open while you are not looking at it, and frighten you. It might open when you already PASSED it and that would seriously frighten you since you'd think a monster is chasing!
Same goes for quests. You ALWAYS know that something WILL happen ONLY after you complete the quest. If you have to insert 3 rods, nothing serious will happen when you insert the first of the second or if you meddle around with the rods in your inventory. If you see a quest item lying on the table, nothing special will happen until you pick it up.
This was known to us since times of Doom (and maybe before) when there were monster closets that would open when you pick a weapon, powerup or a key.
Just simple delay would make it much more reallistic. Like, 20 seconds after the player enters a room with all quest items needed and if he doesnt leave it immediately (meaning he didnt come to complete the quest yet, or he thinks he forgot something) or if he focuses on the quest finishing apparatus for more than x seconds, the script triggers. This would make it TOTALLY unexpected to the player and thus more frightening and fun in the end. Like, you're thinking you are totally safe until you plug that rod, and then bam, zombie starts breaking into the room! You are totally NOT ready for that.
Or you have done the quest, fixed the lift, and nothing happens. You think you are safe. And then BOO - something happens when you already though you're safe for now.

4) Possibly make it less linear or at least feel less linear.
Possibly make player choose and pay for his choice. Like he may be rewarded for paying attention by having an easier time fighting creatures or solving puzzles. For example, player might skip the latern or some kind of item that could help him later.
Also, maybe offer some sort of non-linearity. You could even re-use the content, for example, player has to choose the location to go next, but he would face the same general kind of puzzle. Or, he would choose where to go next and choose the next puzzle he faces, but then in the next decision, he would get the second puzze he didnt take at first.
Or player would have to choose to go one of the two ways, but later he would return to the same place and have to go the other way since the first way is now caved in/broken/whatever.

5) Dont let player know he was toyed around with.
When i understood that monster in the level before the water beast was a fake that despawned after he showed himself to me on the screen going from left to right, it was SO anticlimatic. If you show player that a monster is lurking, and choose to despawn him, at least offer an explanation where the monster had gone. Like, a broken window, or a hole carved in the wall... Even if that monster finally ambushes the player and turns out to be an illusion only, thats better than understanding he DESPAWNED. He isnt there. You were safe all the way because devs just chose to spook you a bit with a false boo.

6) Make player life actually worth something.
To respawn 10 seconds from the place of death is just.... countradictive to the point of the horror game. Of course, this can make another problem - player being unable to go through the game since he cannot manage to get past some location where he always gets killed eventually, this would just annoy the player not make him feel better if he'd do same and same work over and over again just to fail in the end and start again.
Maybe a more thrilling death animation would do? Maybe some sort of loss of some resourcee when you die? I dont know, developers of such great horror games know it better. But it should be there.
Also, idea to offer hints on death is GREAT but make them much more complex. Maybe make a less complex hint each time until at 4 or 5th fail player gets a direct order how to do it (dont stay in water etc)

7) Avoid cliche. Please, the "you will get captured once in the game" thing is just BAD.
Its like every game you play where you have an inventory and some sort of progress and some sort of combat (or evading combat in amnesia) you KNOW there is a chance you are going to be caught by a script (and in some games have to reclaim your inventory)! Its just too obvious it sucks.
Moreover, it is NEVER done right. I mean it. Never. Take any game, almost any (i made some list at the topic above) - its very hard to make capture feel truly unavoidable, truly fitting the plot here.
In some games you can avoid it alltogether (including amnesia) and then you have to SURRENDER yourself to the script to go on with the plot, this is RIDICULOUS!
In some games you can force the script to submit to acknowledge cheating, for example, you can barricade the way into the room where you are to be caught by an enemy coming into the room and then he would come without making noise since he was spawned after the barricade, not came after you as he tells you in teh cutscene. Or you can mine the entrance to the room where capture takes place (like half life) so enemies who'd come to capture you would surely explode. Or you can trigger the script and get out of the trap like in Duke Nukem 3D e1m2. Or your character gives up to an ambush in a situation where due to game mechanics he HAD a chance of winning the fight. Etc.
This is just one thing. But a serious one.

-----------------

Aside from that, just keep up the good work!

Maybe add more puzzles. True puzzes that make you use your brain. Maybe make very hardcore puzzles either optional or leave hints around to help clueless player, like in KOTOR.
Maybe add back SOME sort of combat (so you could say win versus lesser foes but had to run away from more powerful ones, or in different areas of the game you could combat one kind of enemy but were helpless against other kind).
Maybe add more rpg/resource management like hunger, thirst, and need to tend to your wounds (not simple "drink pot")
Maybe add more outdoor areas - forests can be VERY scary especially with creatures lurking....

We need more games where player doesnt play to win, consume and throw away, but actually immerse in the story, feel the character you control... Where player comes to the game to experience a feeling, not beat the game on said diff level and get achivements.

Your not asking for much then? LOL


To be honest for me it would be fine if it was like amnesia again but it needs some VARIANCE ... you can't just have 3 types of monsters for the whole game it just seemed to become too familiar near the end. Would have been nice to see some enhanced monsters just to ramp up the difficulty a little. For me after a while the monsters just seemed like a obstacle that could easily be maneuvered and this started to spoil it a little.

Same with the levels really, there should have been some scenes outside or somewhere else apart from the normal corridors of the castle.

Apart from these small gripes, Amnesia was decent and i did enjoy it regardless.

P.S. To be controversial I would also say that they should bring back the weapons system from overture but actually make it work properly. It was an interesting idea but it was just too clunky.
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