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Work in progress In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod
Juras Offline
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#91
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(08-16-2014, 01:36 AM)FlawlessHappiness Wrote: Hi.
Sorry to disturb, I've just been watching all this go down. Smile
Just a quick thing.

This is what I saw you wrote.
(08-16-2014, 12:22 AM)Juras Wrote: but unless he can prove me that I can upgrade that texture by making an exterior this big himself without it being 5 fps then we won't do it Tongue

He answered with this.

(08-16-2014, 12:39 AM)Robosprog Wrote: That map, even on a mid-low end pc which was what I used to make it, ran at 9-14fps.

Then you said:

(08-16-2014, 01:18 AM)Juras Wrote: And seriously dude are you blind or something? Jesus man, I don't see why you need to have this kind of douche attidude, are you tryng to prove me something?

Yep. He was trying to prove something ^_^


I think, the reason you get all the bug, glitch, level design feedback is because we're at the Development section at the moment. People who tend to use the editor quite a lot and know it's cababilities are around here, and that's what they look for. It's hard to play it like a "Normal player".


With that said, I hope the improving of your mod after all the criticism will go great ^_^

"And seriously dude are you blind or something? Jesus man, I don't see why you need to have this kind of douche attidude, are you tryng to prove me something?"

I was refering to his attitude with that statement. Trust me, I love getting feedback because I know how useful it is but this is about respect and attitude which has nothing to do with that. I know how good criticism with respect and good attitude looks like and how a good criticism from a person expecting free respect because of his/her status looks like. Not gonna waste my time with him anymore though so I think you should just drop it for the sake of us all here

Co-Founder & Lead Art Director of Red Line Games
3D & Environment Artist, Animator
http://jurasbatas.deviantart.com
08-16-2014, 01:47 AM
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FlawlessHappiness Offline
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#92
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

Ok ^_^

*Drops it*

Hope optimization goes well.

Trying is the first step to success.
08-16-2014, 01:51 AM
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AGP Offline
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Posts: 448
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#93
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(08-16-2014, 01:54 AM)Robosprog Wrote: I have a status?

I have a status! Look, I'm special mommy!

Seriously, if you think I ask for respect, you're an idiot. I'm by far one of the most aggressive and disliked people on the forums overall, I know I will get disrespect. Not respect. The people who believe in this kind of "Everyone but me demands respect" are generally the real culprits. The whole frunken team has had this issue, where you all expect respect from the community for no reason, going so far as to ask for donations on your webpage.
Don't be hypocritical about this whole ordeal.

That you are aggressive and disliked. If you have nothing of positive value to add here, then please go elsewhere to cause chaos. You have left your feedback, it has been received, leave it at that.

I did play the demo myself, and honestly, the only thing not addressed that bugged me was my own voice. I'll be redoing that audio for you guys so it sounds better. Smile

And of course, Brian did an absolutely beautiful job!

I also loved the custom wall texture in the guest room area.

Other than that, there is nothing I can add that hasn't already been mentioned: the getting stuck in some areas outside, the back road at the start, and the lighting.

Really well done and I look forward to seeing the full release! Big Grin

_____
P.S.: Respect should be given to everyone REGARDLESS of whether asked for not. It's the Golden Rule. Treat others how you wished to be treated, even if that person is being a complete asshat.

(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 02:14 AM by AGP.)
08-16-2014, 02:12 AM
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Wapez Offline
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Posts: 360
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#94
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(08-16-2014, 01:54 AM)Robosprog Wrote: I have a status?

I have a status! Look, I'm special mommy!

Seriously, if you think I ask for respect, you're an idiot. I'm by far one of the most aggressive and disliked people on the forums overall, I know I will get disrespect. Not respect. The people who believe in this kind of "Everyone but me demands respect" are generally the real culprits. The whole frunken team has had this issue, where you all expect respect from the community for no reason, going so far as to ask for donations on your webpage.
Don't be hypocritical about this whole ordeal.

It looks a lot like you're taking all respect in the world for granted when you're popping up in our thread throwing yourself into the opportunity to review (I'd say complain about though) something that we've made when we neither announced the demo here, or asked for any criticism on it elsewhere. I'm pretty sure that's either asking for, or implying that you already have, our respect.

If it's not though, if you're actually not craving this respect, then the only reason for you to be here and to write all this stuff is for you to, in publicity, look down on someone else. To feel better about yourself maybe, I wouldn't know. Or just to make a point, "you're not as good as you think you are".

And you know what, maybe you're right. I can deal with that. Maybe we have some serious problems to work out. But for now, I wouldn't know. Because I don't really give a shit about what some random, aggressive guy behind a Bruce Lee avatar thinks about us. Maybe I'd realize these potential flaws in our personalities or whatever, if the one telling me of their existence had at least the slightest sense of exchanging respect. Of not fucking one another over for the fun of it.

I'm implying this since I don't think that the other solution (you just liking and enjoying and caring so much about our mod that you HAVE to help us improve it as MUCH and FAST as possible) is even reasonable. If that was the case, I wouldn't know if I should cry or laugh.

So if we all in the future could stick to the actual feedback, and keep everything else out of this thread (I'm available for discussions on how to become a better game developer, or hell, even a better person, in PM's anytime) I'd be very, very happy.

Thanks.

(08-16-2014, 02:12 AM)AGP Wrote: I did play the demo myself, and honestly, the only thing not addressed that bugged me was my own voice. I'll be redoing that audio for you guys so it sounds better. Smile

And of course, Brian did an absolutely beautiful job!

I also loved the custom wall texture in the guest room area.

Other than that, there is nothing I can add that hasn't already been mentioned: the getting stuck in some areas outside, the back road at the start, and the lighting.

Really well done and I look forward to seeing the full release! Big Grin

Personally I think you did a great job, but if you want to re-do it, that's fine. Smile

We'll definitely work on the addressed bugs and issues, and triple-polish (at least) the maps until the full version is released.

Thanks! Big Grin

Founder & Legally Accountable Publisher of Red Line Games.
Environment & Gameplay Designer and Scripter.
http://moddb.com/mods/in-lucys-eyes
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 02:34 AM by Wapez.)
08-16-2014, 02:31 AM
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Wapez Offline
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#95
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(08-16-2014, 02:42 AM)Robosprog Wrote: I think you need to actually read the thread to see who the people were that started the "chaos" as you called it. Juras refusing to accept criticism then acting condescending to anyone who dared question him.
Quote:Lol. Thing is pal,
You're usually a fairly reasonable person, but please, right now you're being nonsensical if you think that I am here to cause chaos. You need to look at Frunken Productions, their attitudes, and values - especially how they acted in this thread - and realize that these people you are working with are just generally assholes too. They refuse to acknowledge mistakes unless it's layered with so much honey that it's sickening. The fact that they try and shift blame - as you are helping them do here - to the people who did give them criticism.
When people say "I'D LIKE TO SEE HIM/YOU DO BETTER" then we go into JetlinerX territory.
The territory of people who just foamed at the mouth and then, luckily for us, ran away after a very short but violent reaction.
Quote:it makes me thing if I should even share with the community the three new monsters that I made after we're done with this mod..
Juras's attempt to guilt trip us all was also pathetic, saying how he was reconsidering releasing these assets to the community after we dared criticize them.
I saw this frequently in this thread. This type of reaction. Observe, if you will, the fact I waited until I was directly called out. And even then, I was pretty reasonable. I explained "Yeah, this is what happened, and I did something similar - it can be done."
Only to then be attacked again, with people later saying "WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO PROVE" after asking me too.
I'm sorry, but when you accuse me of being the one causing chaos, you're just bordering on insanity here. Anyone who took a good look through this thread can see that every action that could be deemed bad was in response to an even worse action, or more appropriately, reaction, by Frunken Productions.

You haven't been as active on these forums as long as I have, and I haven't been on these forums as long as others - yet in my time here, I've seen groups like this come and go many times. Tenebris Lake, springs to mind. People who act like this frequently, only to have the community not respond well, and it creates an argument, shit is slung by either side, and neither ends up looking good for the cameras. I am sick of it.

I see this cycle repeat so many times, and no matter how I try and approach it, from joking, to aggression, to being reasonable, the result is the same - they act like they have been shot. They cannot accept any fault.
Usually, they'll leave after releasing the mod. Honestly, I become colder every time I see that. Because in reality, if these people had just learnt not to act the way they did, to act properly, they would have been welcomed into the community, they would have learnt so much. I know a fair number of people on these forums have an intense dislike of this group for their behavior.
And honestly, this is the exact same as all those other cases.
You won't know this as well as I do. But you're interacting with that group of people - all the symptoms are there. Symptoms that can be cured if they only accept that they exist.

And yes, what plagues these groups is an illness, because that is the only way I can describe that attitude. It is like looking at myself in a mirror, except with my ego, my habit to brush off criticism I disagree with contorted and made as giant as monsters. My worst qualities represented so much larger than I would ever like them to be in myself. This is why I see it so easily, because I share some of those qualities after all this time, if they are not as pronounced.
Maybe this is why I feel so personally involved when these conflicts happen. I know Wapez will say it's to make me feel better about myself, or because I'm some asshole, but in all honesty, it's neither of those things - though I certainly won't claim I try and intervene because I'm a good person.

This disease does have a cure, and honestly, I hope Frunken find it before they release their mod, because it will help a lot, and because the inevitable fall is after they release their "big" mod as I know this is at least, not Wapez's first mod.

Alright doctor, outside of this thread it was, yeah?

EDIT:
If a moderator could clean this thread up I'd appreciate it, by the way.

Founder & Legally Accountable Publisher of Red Line Games.
Environment & Gameplay Designer and Scripter.
http://moddb.com/mods/in-lucys-eyes
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 03:04 AM by Wapez.)
08-16-2014, 02:52 AM
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Zatchie Offline
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#96
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

*facepalm*

Founder of Frunken Productions. Map designer and 3D and texture artist
http://frunkenproductions.com/
http://youtube.com/frunkenproductions
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 03:13 AM by Zatchie.)
08-16-2014, 03:06 AM
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Kreekakon Offline
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#97
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

Alright everybody settle down now. I am going to have a nice talk on what went wrong in this thread:

It is mostly a spiral of unfortunates, the talk started off talking about constructive criticisms, but now has delved into talking about each other's attitudes. I seriously think that this should stop, and it would be wise for everyone to get back to talking about criticisms.

However I will offer some of my personal input as well. If I am going to be completely frank, Robo's attitude when he started giving Fruken the criticism was completely fine, even if just a slight bit direct. While the more direct format is not something I personally would do so plainly, I found no reason to have such a huge reaction to what he has been posting. For the most part his posts were an attempt to inform you properly in what he thought could use improvement. I have known Robo for an extremely long time, and believe me when I say he is not out to spite you, but is trying to tell you flatout what he thinks of your mod.

Also, your team seems be get rather on edge regarding things which are "complained" about. Quoting several examples below:

(08-16-2014, 12:22 AM)Juras Wrote: Lol. Thing is pal, the texture was higher res when we first made that map but it was a slideshow on a mid-end pc and I don't think people would have wanted that so we decided to reduce it for better optimization. I don't care how much he knows about engine limits, but unless he can prove me that I can upgrade that texture by making an exterior this big himself without it being 5 fps then we won't do it Tongue

(08-16-2014, 12:36 AM)Juras Wrote: And really? What's wrong with her hair? I mean I know what you mean but come on man, are you really complaining about that? I'm not a pro character artist but I did my best with the hair cause it's really hard making it look good, considering the engine and the poly count budget. And every game's characters hair is made out of planes with alpha textures. That's what I did awell with her hair, hell I even added joints to her hair so I could make them move in a creepy way. Jesus, you don't even see her that close to notice that unless you look at her in the model editor. That was really unnecessary man and it makes me thing if I should even share with the community the three new monsters that I made after we're done with this mod..

The best reviews are ones which also accompany positive points, but that doesn't mean that ones which merely point out flaws are not to be valued as well. Regardless of how small something that an be improved may be (Like the hair for instance), they are all things that should be taken into account.

If you believe that some of the suggestions are not suited to what you are setting out to do then you are welcome to voice it. Just know that if the reason you provided for doing so has flaws, then people are allowed to continue pointing out the flaws behind your reasoning.

-----------------------------------------------------

Also, next up I would like to address what seems to be one of the biggest controversies of this mod right now: Optimization.

Several members have noted that they think your texture outdoors is of low resolution, and you have provided the counter-argument that it is for optimization purposes.

Of course I have not worked on this mod, nor played it yet, so my input may be a bit flawed, but here are a few things I have to say regarding this issue:

1. This is the most important, and regards the art of optimization as a whole. It can be roughly summed up in a saying that I like very much:

"Optimization in games is not making everything perfect, it's taking away from what the player can't see, and adding to the places the player will focus on"

I have talked to a few members who have seen this mod first-hand, and they responded to me that you have several trees, and numerous particles showering the sky.

You say you have a vision, and don't wish to compromise too much, but still have to do so for the sake of optimization. I can understand that you are forced to cut some aspects from your map.

So why not do it in more subtle places? I'd assume that there are many things in the map which are very far away or small enough that the player will not notice it being low quality, or even gone. The ground I'd assume is something which is very close to the player's line of view, and something that they will notice very easily. If you take away from something that close they will notice it for sure.

2. Perfect optimization for systems of all ranges is not something which may be suggested to go for. If you cater too much to players who have too low-end machines they you may risk alienating the other majority of mid, and high end machines. Sometimes the needs of the many just are more numerous than the few. Is it really wise to compromise your mod to reach out to a wider audience?

If it concerns you that much, maybe you could release a version which has lower resolution models/textures for anyone who has offered feedback on experiencing lag?

Another thing you could do if it worries you a lot is to hold beta tests for players to try out your mod on various qualities, and see what seems like an appropriate optimization point.

--------------------------------------------

That's pretty much all I have to say for now. If anyone feels like I have done them injustice, or taken them out of context feel free to tell me, and I'd be happy to try and clear the air on my intentions.

Also I will play the mod's demo for myself, and provide a hopefully thorough review to offer insight on what I think about it, and if any of the mentioned criticisms hold true. You can expect me to be completely neutral on the matter, and I will include all of my thoughts, whether positive, or negative in it.

Until then see you all later!

EDIT: Also for now at least, I will leave all the posts in this thread up in case anyone wants to reference something said earlier.

[Image: Tv0YgQb.gif]
Image by BandyGrass
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 10:50 AM by Kreekakon.)
08-16-2014, 10:40 AM
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Wapez Offline
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#98
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

Thank you for the feedback.

I'm sorry - I'm too tired to give you a long answer on all of this right now. But I do appreciate your help and critism.

Also, it makes me sad that you didn't care about me asking everyone to leave everything other than feedback out of this thread. I understand that you're a moderator and that your work is to make sure that this forum stays somewhat friendly. But I feel like you could have left out your moral opinion on the arguments for the sake of me wanting to keep this thread away from that stuff.

Thanks for the other stuff though - it will be very helpful.

Founder & Legally Accountable Publisher of Red Line Games.
Environment & Gameplay Designer and Scripter.
http://moddb.com/mods/in-lucys-eyes
(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 12:56 PM by Wapez.)
08-16-2014, 12:55 PM
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Kreekakon Offline
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#99
RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

(08-16-2014, 12:55 PM)Wapez Wrote: Also, it makes me sad that you didn't care about me asking everyone to leave everything other than feedback out of this thread. I understand that you're a moderator and that your work is to make sure that this forum stays somewhat friendly. But I feel like you could have left out your moral opinion on the arguments for the sake of me wanting to keep this thread away from that stuff.

Actually, assuming I'm understanding you right, I did say something along those lines, but I think it may have been a better idea to emphasize it a bit more in my closing comments:

(08-16-2014, 10:40 AM)Kreekakon Wrote: It is mostly a spiral of unfortunates, the talk started off talking about constructive criticisms, but now has delved into talking about each other's attitudes. I seriously think that this should stop, and it would be wise for everyone to get back to talking about criticisms.

Also you are very welcome for the thanks Smile

Hopefully I will be back with my own review soon. It may have to wait until tomorrow since the download is taking a very long time.

EDIT: Oh, and I think I realized that you were also talking about being slightly upset by me adding in my own personal moral input.

I am sorry that it goes against what you wished for the thread, but now that we have gone into such a situation, it is my way of trying to resolve this properly, instead of leaving everything just hanging in the air.

I assure you though that I wish no less than the best for you, your mod, and your thread, but I believe that attempting to communicate for a bit longer may be a better long term plan alternative than just dropping everything right away.

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(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 01:16 PM by Kreekakon.)
08-16-2014, 01:05 PM
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Kreekakon Offline
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RE: In Lucy's Eyes - Full Conversion Mod

Ok, I finished your demo, and here are some of my quick thoughts on it. This mod/demo is definitely far from completed so I don't feel that it would be fair, or proper to use my usual reviewing format, so I'll just cut to the chase, and present individual points that I have found worth mentioning:

(These will likely be in chronological order that I have encountered/noticed them. Also don't be dismayed if you notice more bad points than good! This will be normal since if I don't mention something it means it was done alright. Not exceptionally good, but alright. Another thing of note is that since this is mainly a "list of suggestions" there definitely will be more criticisms than positives on it.)

(I played this mod with my "suspension of disbelief" hat on which means that I generally have not gone out of my way to look for flaws to criticize, and have tried to play the mod at the flow it directs me. This means that anything I mention here will be obvious things I still noticed despite trying to be immersed properly in your mod.)

1. Very decent voice acting that has its own charm to it!

2. The names appearing on the screen at the very start seem to be very out of place. This is most likely due to their font, size, and overall position on the screen. It was not done in a pleasing way to the eyes. It may be better to go for a simpler approach when displaying such names (Compare to how Half Life 2 flashed its team's names)

Also another issue is that the text seems to pop up too quickly. As in the text will bounce up, and down as the player's view, which also functions as the camera, was forcefully stopped to properly look at the text. Simply put, the player will have taken "one last step" after the text appears which makes it jump around.

3. The player starts facing a cabin with lights on which makes it the most obvious place to go, however there is nothing inside it of interest, which makes me feel a bit frustrated, and felt like that my time was wasted.

I know you mentioned earlier that you put the cabin here to make it feel less linear, but I did not feel compelled in that way. This is puzzling to me as well, because I do not feel the same level of frustration from all the random rooms in the guest room later on.

I'm no game designer, but my theory on why this is is because it's the start of the mod. In the start of the mod I perhaps expect to be directed to the main area, and THEN have the game open up. It feels to me that the opening should be a more directed experience that eases the player into the main meat of the game.

That's not saying that the cabin should not be there at all. I think the cabin can have a place in the opening sequence if it has something of interest in it. It does not have to be essential to progress, but it could just be "interesting"...make it feel a part of the opening, and not feel jarring from the rest of the opening sequence.

If you do not wish to use the cabin as a part of the opening sequence then I would recommend that you turn the player the other direction to not misdirect them in the wrong way (I will touch more on this later in point 5)

4. The level structure could use some work, because there were a few times that I accidentally walked into the wrong side of the fence, and needed to backtrack. Once I even walked to the side of the map, and could see the grey void of nothingness.

It may be a good idea to carefully plan the fences, and trees out that such things do not seem "logically" possible. You could use blockboxes, but I do not recommend it, because it will damage the player's suspension of disbelief.

5. It is rather easy to get turned around in this mod's opening, and I think the reason for this is the lack of subtle directing of the player in a specific direction.

This is also the reason that in the very beginning of the mod players will be incentivized to head towards the cabin. It is because of two factors that works hand-in-hand: The fact that you start looking at the cabin, and that the cabin has a light in the otherwise mostly dark environment. This combination will subtlety encourage the player to head towards the cabin.

This method could also be used to subtlety guide the player towards the correct path in the opening, and not get lost. A light in the dark can very subtlety but effectively guide the player to where they have to go, especially in the more linear sections.

6. Now onto something that has been talked about a lot in this thread: The resolution of the floor outdoors.

First things first, I appreciate that you took the extra effort to model terrain. It makes the environment feel much better than just using standard planes.

Then onto the resolution. The good news(?) is that the low resolution does not stand out unless you look at it for over 1 second. However, when you see stones, or other entities on the terrain, then it becomes really obvious just how low-res the terrain is when compared to the more normal-res entities.

So I definitely think it is something that should be fixed if possible.

7. The indoor chandelier event could be handled slightly better. Such as the chandelier being able to be interacted with while the player is still getting up, or that the chandelier does not have reasonable weight when interacted with (Especially compared with how the previous scene implying how much it weighed)

8. Some parts of the mod actually genuinely made me feel scared. There were a couple cues, and scenes that were really effective in subtlety building atmosphere.

9. Now onto the cellar scene. I don't have too much to say about the idea of the scene, but what I will talk about is one very important thing that I think was overlooked:

The scene is not idiot-proof.

What I mean by this is that even though it takes a very long time to die, it is still possible, and some problems have happened, because of this death:

(1) The death message as the bridge's saying "Watch your step"
(2) You will respawn at the very start of the level
(3) The background music will be gone
(4) You can try going back to the cellar and the door will display the same message when interacted with...from the other side
(5) The cellar door will still be locked

It was not such an huge game-breaking here, since it didn't affect overall progress, but it definitely hurt the quality of the mod. It is also something that should definitely be avoided in the final product, because it "would" break the game if it involved essential items to progress in the game.

10. There are some flickering decals here, and there. Those should be addressed.

11. I haven't worked with HPL2 for too long to be certain if this is an engine issue, or not, but the music in the notes stop halfway through, and it becomes silent.

12. In the dialogue after the opening some of it does not have subtitles attached to them.

13. The "Archives" in the main hub does not have messages when interacted with. No noises, or messages.

--------------------------------

So yeah that's everything I have to say on the mod. Basically my verdict opinion on this demo is that it shows promise, but is generally unfinished. It still definitely needs lots of work, but again shows promise!

Another piece of advice I want to give is that in the future before releasing demos like this, it would be wisest to better finish it, and fix up the various issues before showing it to the general public.

A pre-release demo is meant to hype up an audience to be excited for a product. It is meant to be a showcase of the absolute best that the mod will have to offer.

What you have here is more like a "beta test" which shows a work-in-progress, and asks for feedback on how to improve said work-in-progress.

Well that's all the input I have for now! Good luck with your project! Big Grin

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(This post was last modified: 08-16-2014, 07:40 PM by Kreekakon.)
08-16-2014, 07:36 PM
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