Gender

[Paddy™]

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fair enough point but that still goes back to the whole idea that it's kind of dictated by society what men and women should and shouldn't do; it's assumed that men should do jobs that require more physical work and generally are more dangerous. yes there's the whole argument of genetics making it easier for men to do those sorts of jobs but considering we've moved past genetic advantages in the name of equality (gay marriage becoming legal despite the fact that homosexuals can't reproduce, people of all ethnicities and genders being accepted into sporting events and larger competitions like the olympics despite the fact that people of certain backgrounds statistically preform better, etc. etc.). obviously there's nothing very concrete you can do to change that, though raising future generations without a set mindset that certain genders are meant for certain occupations can help a lot.

The question is, does society dictate what men and women should or shouldn't do for a living, or do men and women dictate that for themselves? I'm sure the answer is as complex as it is old, but I'm not so quick to blame society or the "patriarchy", and I'm not even sure that it's a problem that needs solving. It appears to be a problem if you look at it from the position of a feminist who believes men are trouble. If you were to take the position of a male chauvinist you might say that the fact of men dying 20 times more often at work than women shows that women are the oppressors. Obviously I don't think that's true either haha, but I'm demonstrating how a single piece of data can be used to support many different and mutually exclusive ideas.

I agree that we don't have to be ruled by our genes (we combat our evolution all the time through our behaviours), and there are women in policing, the military, construction, etc. But you can't overcome the limitations of your physical make-up through sheer willpower; if you're a slender woman, you won't do too well lifting bails of hay or swinging a pick-axe. Obviously a slender man would have the same problem (despite his long arms and ability to levitate), but men tend to make up the greater number of the burly sorts.

It wasn't that long ago that my dad - a muscular Judo expert from Belfast - would be teased for being a nurse, because that's a "woman's job". The teasing wasn't so strong when he moved into mental health nursing, and was handling violent killers and psychopaths in a lock-up ward. A woman could do that job, of course, but on balance it's going to attract men; men aren't herded into the hospital to work against their will, after all.

women aren't meant to be sexual or promiscuous. this is why when a women goes around and sleeps with a bunch of guys she'll most likely be viewed a lot worse than if a guy went around and sleep with a bunch of girls. think of it, the large majority of the time the girl in the first case would be viewed as a slut but the guy would have been viewed as a "player" or some shit like that.

This is very true. I don't know if this is something to be blamed on men/maleness, though. The words "she's a total slut" tend to come from a woman's lips before they do a man's, in my own experience anyway.

The double-standard exists and is something to fight against, but feminism isn't the cure and I don't know that men are the cause.

women have to be skinny, shaved, and well dressed if they want to be viewed as beautiful. this does of course effect men to a certain extent too, but it's generally imposed on women much much more. that's why you don't hear of guys developing anorexia or bulimia

I'm not sure of the statistics about the prevalence of body dimorphism between genders, but I do know that it's not rare for it to hit men. It's almost certainly more shameful and embarrassing for a man to admit it or seek help for it, as is the case with male victims of domestic violence. Men certainly kill themselves a hell of a lot more often than women.

like i mentioned before, women are supposed to take a much less rigorous and hands on profession then men, and if they have kids they're often expected to give up there job for a few years to raise their kid

Again, are women supposed to take a less hands-on approach or do they naturally gravitate towards work which is less physically demanding?

women are expected to be submissive to men when it comes to sex and relationships, this has a lot to do with that first point i brought up. it's also where the whole concept of the frinedzone comes from, since guys assume that women are obligated to want them back if they pursue feelings for a girl.

I think I know what you mean regarding the expectation that women should be submissive to men, but I think that attitude has been headed out the door since the final episode of M*A*S*H aired. I don't personally know anyone who thinks that way about women. My dad might have been that way had my mum let him XD

The Friend Zone debate is a double-standard in itself. Women are apparently seen as pure, virginal, and impeccably forthright, and men as sex-fiends. Women are just as capable as men of wanting to be with someone and then for that person to reject their romantic advances in favour of friendship. That the process has a name and is attributed to men isn't evidence that it's really a man thang, men just happen to talk about it more. I don't even understand how it's a point of debate; women desire men, sometimes the man isn't interested, so she's "friend zoned". Are we to believe that women take that in stride and that men are the only ones to be irritated or disappointed when it happens to them?

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Unfortunately, it is a common symptom of privilege to be able to ignore (or worse, acknowledge and not care about) the little things that make life difficult for an under-privileged group. But that under-privileged group gets to feel that apathy in one way or another by maintaining the status-quo.

You are not under-privileged. By no stretch of the imagination can you possibly say that you are under-privileged or that you belong to an oppressed class. It's a self-imposed fantasy of victimhood which has no basis in reality whatsoever. I don't even know why Bridge is conceding so much to you in this debate, you're saying things which are so patently false and drenched in hyperbole as to defy reason.

Feminism is not a cause, it's an identity. Women are not under attack and are not uniquely threatened. Men are not privileged. If you want to start listing all the ways in which men are "privileged" I'll match them one-for-one with the ways in which women are "privileged", which will prove nothing and will convince you of nothing because this is not a genuine debate for you, but is instead a dumping ground for feminist soundbites, battle cries, talking points and demonstrably incorrect statistics and data.

I haven't responded so directly to you before, but the quoted paragraph is so smug, patronising and self-important that I just had to. You speak as if you've just stepped off of a slave ship in 1750. It's depressing.