Gender

[VaeVictis]

Study feminism. Get involved with it. Look at how the problems of the women in your life differ from yours.

Have you even read my posts? I have done nothing but advocate equality. I know that men are privileged. But I also know that it is not my fault, and I will not stand idly by while somebody claims that it is. It's simply not true, and generally I try to correct people when they spout falsehoods.

Or just question assumptions and the very fact that you got all hot and flustered, thus proving my sarcastic comment about hyper-emotional men! All those things help.

The only thing it proves is that I have no patience for idiocy in debates. You made a patently erroneous post that I wished to refute, and the joke clearly went over my head since I have not read the thread you're referencing. When did I get "hot and flustered"? You made a stupid post that made no sense so I pointed that out. If you made a stupid post about any other issue I would have responded exactly the same way.

P.S. Just throwing your hands up and saying "Ah, some men will be bad" is a cop-out. You and I, as men, can do something to help other guys be less casually dismissive of the female gender.

Yeah, how's that working out for you? Last time I checked people are free to believe what they want to believe and it has been shown that time and time again it is very difficult to make bigots see reason. I can only lead by example, which is what I do.

The fact is that you shouldn't get angry when a girl complains about issues that affect her - it's not a personal attack on your gentlemanly conduct, and reading into it as such is not a grown man's way of discourse. A thick skin is necessary for the internet, if not a thick skull.

Listen, this is a place for discussion. Somebody makes a post, somebody else responds. If I didn't want to talk to people then I wouldn't be here. You act as if I were gravely offended at Abraxis' words which is simply not true. I know I'm not sexist, so it doesn't matter to me what Abraxis thinks. What matters to me is pointing out that she shows undue resentment towards males in her posts and makes pointless, irrelevant blanket statements about men that do not hold up.

I never said those things happened to me. I also never called you sexist.
I was giving you examples of things almost every woman out there faces EVERY DAY just by leaving the house (see everydaysexism). This isn't just a woman's problem, it's also a man's problem. It's a societal problem that we can all do something about instead of belittling each others problems.
So, you expected me not to react to being implied about being over-emotional and obviously from a bad neighborhood? I'm not resentful towards men, thankyouverymuch for putting words in my mouth. But I acknowledge the inherent dangers that come with simply being female. I'm also not complacent enough to accept that as normal. I know men are better than the animalistic sex fiends that I know are out there. Despite my, and every other woman's experiences, I choose to think men are better than that.
If we question the everyday assumptions we make about the genders (which there are more than two of, by the way), we can help end this stupid war.

[Bridge]

I never said those things happened to me. I also never called you sexist.
I was giving you examples of things almost every woman out there faces EVERY DAY just by leaving the house (see everydaysexism). This isn't just a woman's problem, it's also a man's problem. It's a societal problem that we can all do something about instead of belittling each others problems.
So, you expected me not to react to being implied about being over-emotional and obviously from a bad neighborhood? I'm not resentful towards men, thankyouverymuch for putting words in my mouth. But I acknowledge the inherent dangers that come with simply being female. I'm also not complacent enough to accept that as normal. I know men are better than the animalistic sex fiends that I know are out there. Despite my, and every other woman's experiences, I choose to think men are better than that.
If we question the everyday assumptions we make about the genders (which there are more than two of, by the way), we can help end this stupid war.

The problem is you choosing to bring up those issues in the first place. The very first post you made on the topic of feminism was an incredibly irrelevant defense of women's rights, when absolutely nobody had suggested in any way that women's rights were not important. We were discussing the dangers of feminist extremism, which Paddy put quite eloquently in his "wall of text". To recapitulate: When you make the issue about recovering rights that you feel were forcibly taken from you, obviously somebody needs to be at fault, right? The classic scapegoat is "men", and sooner or later at least one person chooses to make the issue an emotional one, about bitter revenge rather than simply achieving a necessary goal. It is much better to strive for equality, which places no undue emphasis on either sex, and can truly ensure that eventually both sexes will be regarded as totally equal. Now, of course not all gender-related issues are merely political, I would say the most severe ones in the Western world are social ones, which can be corrected overtime by bringing up children in an environment where neither sex is discriminated against. As I already said, you cannot force somebody to think a certain way, which makes this very difficult. The very best I can do is continue to not discriminate, harshly criticize people who do, and if I ever have children raise them to not be bigots.

Do you see now why some of us are irritated that you choose to bring up emotionally fueled arguments about women having it bad? We know, it just wasn't what was being discussed at the time and there is very little we can do about it.

[VaeVictis]

I never said those things happened to me. I also never called you sexist.
I was giving you examples of things almost every woman out there faces EVERY DAY just by leaving the house (see everydaysexism). This isn't just a woman's problem, it's also a man's problem. It's a societal problem that we can all do something about instead of belittling each others problems.
So, you expected me not to react to being implied about being over-emotional and obviously from a bad neighborhood? I'm not resentful towards men, thankyouverymuch for putting words in my mouth. But I acknowledge the inherent dangers that come with simply being female. I'm also not complacent enough to accept that as normal. I know men are better than the animalistic sex fiends that I know are out there. Despite my, and every other woman's experiences, I choose to think men are better than that.
If we question the everyday assumptions we make about the genders (which there are more than two of, by the way), we can help end this stupid war.

The problem is you choosing to bring up those issues in the first place. The very first post you made on the topic of feminism was an incredibly irrelevant defense of women's rights, when absolutely nobody had suggested in any way that women's rights were not important. We were discussing the dangers of feminist extremism, which Paddy put quite eloquently in his "wall of text". To recapitulate: When you make the issue about recovering rights that you feel were forcibly taken from you, obviously somebody needs to be at fault, right? The classic scapegoat is "men", and sooner or later at least one person chooses to make the issue an emotional one, about bitter revenge rather than simply achieving a necessary goal. It is much better to strive for equality, which places no undue emphasis on either sex, and can truly ensure that eventually both sexes will be regarded as totally equal. Now, of course not all gender-related issues are merely political, I would say the most severe ones in the Western world are social ones, which can be corrected overtime by bringing up children in an environment where neither sex is discriminated against. As I already said, you cannot force somebody to think a certain way, which makes this very difficult. The very best I can do is continue to not discriminate, harshly criticize people who do, and if I ever have children raise them to not be bigots.

Do you see now why some of us are irritated that you choose to bring up emotionally fueled arguments about women having it bad? We know, it just wasn't what was being discussed at the time and there is very little we can do about it.

I brought up the issue because it indicates a broken system. And I'm arguing that our inequality is NOT equal. I bring up these things because pretending like men and women are suffering the same things in the same way is naive.
Where did I ever imply 'bitter revenge'? Where did I blame every man ever? I'm not out to get you. I swear. Heck, I'm not even out to get all mankind, either!
I never even accused you of sexism. And you're right, I can't force anyone to accept their own privilege (there's that scary 'p' word again!'). It's entirely in your court.
The issues men and women face are both unfortunate, but they are not equal. The average heterosexual male is not likely to be a victim of domestic violence. Every 9 seconds in the U.S.A., a women is beaten by her spouse.
The average heterosexual male is far more concerned about being 'friend zoned', while the average heterosexual female is fearing being raped and killed by that guy who won't leave her alone at the bar.
The average heterosexual male is NOT marginalized in mainstream media, business, or in the military. Women are far more likely to sexually assaulted the in military then die as a result of military conflict. Women are constantly barraged with degrading imagery.
To offset ANY emotion you may read into this:

Spoiler below!

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Click me

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I'm not blaming men, I'm blaming the system that was built by them and allows it happen. This system also makes male victims of assault hesitant to come forward because of the masculinism it values, and makes it especially hard for those with alternative sexualities to be seen as equals. It hurts everyone, but it disproportionately hurts women. That discrepancy means that men have privilege. NOT that your lives are carefree, far from it, but you simply aren't likely to have to worry about these things.
You can't solve a problem until you see it for what it is. It is NOT equal inequality.
Men are rational, intelligent people who can help change a broken system. You're not helpless, you CAN help change this system. But only once you forfeit the idea that da womenz are out to get you.

[Bridge]

I brought up the issue because it indicates a broken system.

It certainly is. And using another broken system to counter it is not the answer. That is the long and short of this entire debate.

Where did I ever imply 'bitter revenge'? Where did I blame every man ever?

Unfortunate wording. I am not blaming you for that, but feminist extremism. However, I hope you can understand how someone can read some bitterness into your posts, especially considering the context of your comments. As I have been saying the entire time, the argument is not about how unequal each sex is, it is about whether feminism is really the best way to achieve equality. That is what I am arguing anyway.

I never even accused you of sexism.

By extension you did. As I said, I do not even take offense, but take a look at some of your posts again. You paint men with some very broad strokes and you imply (that is how I interpreted it anyway) that it is a collective effort of some sort. You frame gender inequality as being about crimes of some sort committed by men against women. That is fine as an abstract (it is completely true), until you stop referring to men as a concept and start to refer to the entire male population simultaneously. You told me that I do not understand the problems women go through and that by being part of an oppressive group I do not have the right to make statements. Personally I think that is a bit sexist.

And you're right, I can't force anyone to accept their own privilege (there's that scary 'p' word again!'). It's entirely in your court.

Do you see now why I accuse you of discrimination? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are trying to imply here that me, or any other man for that matter is responsible for what other men do, correct? That would suggest to me that you consider us a whole. Instead of "male" being a gender and a social construct, we are a unified force. Problem is, we do not have any leaders and we do not have any control over what the whole does. What, you think by me going out and saying: "guys, stop being sexist!" that sexism is going to go away? I'm powerless. It is hard enough to get elected officials who are obliged to do what's in your best interest to listen to you, how hard do you think it is to get people who do not care about your opinion at all to listen?

Men are rational, intelligent people who can help change a broken system. You're not helpless, you CAN help change this system. But only once you forfeit the idea that da womenz are out to get you.

As I've said before I can not. And I am certainly not suggesting that women are "out to get me". If you even read an ounce of that into my posts then I would ask you to abandon that idea because I said nothing of the sort.

[VaeVictis]

I brought up the issue because it indicates a broken system.

It certainly is. And using another broken system to counter it is not the answer. That is the long and short of this entire debate.

Where did I ever imply 'bitter revenge'? Where did I blame every man ever?

Unfortunate wording. I am not blaming you for that, but feminist extremism. However, I hope you can understand how someone can read some bitterness into your posts, especially considering the context of your comments. As I have been saying the entire time, the argument is not about how unequal each sex is, it is about whether feminism is really the best way to achieve equality. That is what I am arguing anyway.

I never even accused you of sexism.

By extension you did. As I said, I do not even take offense, but take a look at some of your posts again. You paint men with some very broad strokes and you imply (that is how I interpreted it anyway) that it is a collective effort of some sort. You frame gender inequality as being about crimes of some sort committed by men against women. That is fine as an abstract (it is completely true), until you stop referring to men as a concept and start to refer to the entire male population simultaneously. You told me that I do not understand the problems women go through and that by being part of an oppressive group I do not have the right to make statements. Personally I think that is a bit sexist.

And you're right, I can't force anyone to accept their own privilege (there's that scary 'p' word again!'). It's entirely in your court.

Do you see now why I accuse you of discrimination? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you are trying to imply here that me, or any other man for that matter is responsible for what other men do, correct? That would suggest to me that you consider us a whole. Instead of "male" being a gender and a social construct, we are a unified force. Problem is, we do not have any leaders and we do not have any control over what the whole does. What, you think by me going out and saying: "guys, stop being sexist!" that sexism is going to go away? I'm powerless. It is hard enough to get elected officials who are obliged to do what's in your best interest to listen to you, how hard do you think it is to get people who do not care about your opinion at all to listen?

Men are rational, intelligent people who can help change a broken system. You're not helpless, you CAN help change this system. But only once you forfeit the idea that da womenz are out to get you.

As I've said before I can not. And I am certainly not suggesting that women are "out to get me". If you even read an ounce of that into my posts then I would ask you to abandon that idea because I said nothing of the sort.

I do apologize if my comments came out as bitter, they certainly were not intended as such. They were to demonstrate my unequal inequality/ privilege argument. And I will abandon the women are out for you sentiment when you acknowledge the assumptions that were made about my 'pseudo feminism' and the area where I live were out of line. I'm afraid your exposure to feminism is limited if I come off as extreme.
Now, I'm glad that you've acknowledged your privilege. But you can still do something about this system. Call someone out on a rape 'joke.' See someone persisting with a woman who already said 'no'? Call him on it. These small things matter, and feminism as I know it have been the most active and supportive ones in it. egalitarians and humanists, not so much. Ignoring a problem will not make it go away. You have to do something to make it happen. I need feminism, because that's only group that have actually set up support groups for victims and aid to those advocating rights for women in other countries.
This isn't bitter revenge. This is about acknowledging the problem and not being content to just hope everything eventually works out.
And now...off to sleep.

[PutraenusAlivius]

You give the people a rule, they WILL ignore it.

[Nice]

dont see any rules broken here

[PutraenusAlivius]

dont see any rules broken here

Oh sorry then. I actually thought the argument was a bit hostile.

[Ashtoreth]

I need feminism, because that's only group that have actually set up support groups for victims and aid to those advocating rights for women in other countries.

I don't know about the reality of the USA regarding this issue, but it's very ignorant and unfair of you to assume that feminists are the only ones who set up support groups for victims. What do you know about "other countries" anyway? The most important support group for victims of all kinds of crimes in Portugal (APAV - Portuguese Association for Victim Support) has nothing to do with "feminism" in its foundation, and yet they have a very active role in raising awareness of crimes such as domestic violence, violence against women, sexual harassment and rape.
You can see some of their campaigns here, in case you're interested.

[Paddy™]

Now, I'm glad that you've acknowledged your privilege.

I know you were talking to Bridge, but I just want to state that I don't believe in "male privilege" in any meaningful way, certainly not in the Western world. It only looks like "privilege" when you view it through the skewed lens of feminism, otherwise it looks significantly less sinister. See Acies' link for one example of how seeing a certain state of affairs through feminist eyes can completely miss the point.

But you can still do something about this system. Call someone out on a rape 'joke.'

If it's a joke about prison rape amongst men, is that OK? Is it more/less/equally offensive when it's about a woman?

I don't find rape jokes offensive, but I find it offensive when people tell me that I'm supporting "rape culture" or contributing to the normalisation of abuse against women (never men) by laughing at rape jokes. Laughing at rape jokes, mind you; not rape. I've been directly affected by mental illness, sexual abuse, torture and murder, but I still find jokes about each topic funny and I don't believe I'm making my own life worse for it. I'm better off, if anything.

See someone persisting with a woman who already said 'no'? Call him on it.

That you think a.) men need constant reminding not to harass people, and b.) that feminism is the only/best way to do it, is why feminism is such a moribund world view.

These small things matter, and feminism as I know it have been the most active and supportive ones in it. egalitarians and humanists, not so much.

Do you have any data or examples of how feminism works where humanism doesn't?

Ignoring a problem will not make it go away.

We're on the same page here, but ignoring the problem isn't as bad as exaggerating, mischaracterising or outright fabricating the problem (that's not directed at you personally), nor is it worse than claiming that the only or the best way to combat the problem is to go along with feminism or any other one-track ideology for that matter.

I need feminism, because that's only group that have actually set up support groups for victims and aid to those advocating rights for women in other countries.

This is patently untrue. Amnesty International isn't a feminist organisation, the last time I checked. Neither is the UN Charter on Human Rights, or the Geneva convention, not even the first battered women's shelters were feminist organisations. In fact, the woman (Erin Pizzey) who started the very first battered women's shelter in the U.K. was run out of town by feminists because she started accepting men and boys into her shelters and advocated on their behalf.

For every women's support group you can mention which was started by feminists I can show you 10 which weren't. You don't "need" feminism, any more than you "need" religion to know right from wrong. The comparison to religion is intentional

This is about acknowledging the problem and not being content to just hope everything eventually works out.

Agreed, but feminism isn't the answer.