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Player choice and The End.
Cranky Old Man Offline
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#21
RE: Player choice and The End.

(11-28-2015, 03:01 AM)D351 Wrote: Simon is however a moron for thinking his being copied had any chance of taking him out of the body being copied from. This annoyed me to no end.
Why would he be a moron? It worked twice before.

I don't think you understand how this being copied thing works.
All this time, through the ENTIRE game, you've been playing the contents of the cortex chip found inside the worker robot at Omicron. Previous to the game, this cortex chip was loaded with a memory of Simon, attached to the body of Herber, and sent off in Simon's quest. It remembers what Simon in REED's body did previously, and even the life of original Simon, but the player wasn't actually there.
...but Herber Simon isn't able to tell the difference between a memory, and real life. It won't know until it's actually copied, who it actually is. Provided that Simon was smart, he was hoping for being a part of the memory aboard the ARK, just REMEMBERING what Herber Simon did, and not actually being Herber Simon itself.
There was a 50-50 chance of either alternative, but Herber Simon was blind to losing, both because it had worked so well before, and because he was really hoping to leave Pathos II for a promised land.

(09-29-2015, 12:50 AM)humanoid Wrote: I'm talking about the player choice to kill the WAU, clearly Simon-3's arm gets ripped off but shouldn't he also instantly die as a result since his protection suit that was supposed to withstand the high pressure just got torn apart?
Nope. You see, the instructions for putting on the suit states that you need a friend to help you actually SEAL the suit. (I think the button is situated in the back or something.) ...so the suit wasn't actually sealed, and the body got slowly pressurised in the airlock on its way out. That didn't stop you, because the gel probably compensated, protecting your bones, and so on. ...so I'm guessing that those cortex thingies can withstand abyss depths.

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(This post was last modified: 01-14-2016, 07:18 AM by Cranky Old Man.)
01-14-2016, 07:10 AM
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Mudbill Offline
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#22
RE: Player choice and The End.

(01-14-2016, 07:10 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote: All this time, through the ENTIRE game, you've been playing the contents of the cortex chip found inside the worker robot at Omicron.

How is this? Yes, the chip has the memories of the previous Simons but how can you say the entire first 2/3 of the game is just a memory and not live? You clearly have choices along the way and the actual copying, which is a direct continuation of his previous life.

The way I see it is that you always play as the current Simon, but every time the body chances, in the copy's perspective, it is instantaneous. The game then changes perspective to the next Simon because of gameplay reasons, when in reality the player is doomed twice (2015, and Omicron, excluding the ending). From the perspective of the copied, he is transfered. From the original's perspective, nothing changes.

(This post was last modified: 01-14-2016, 05:41 PM by Mudbill.)
01-14-2016, 08:24 AM
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Cranky Old Man Offline
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#23
RE: Player choice and The End.

(01-14-2016, 08:24 AM)Mudbill Wrote:
(01-14-2016, 07:10 AM)Cranky Old Man Wrote: All this time, through the ENTIRE game, you've been playing the contents of the cortex chip found inside the worker robot at Omicron.

How is this? Yes, the chip has the memories of the previous Simons but how can you say the entire first 2/3 of the game is just a memory and not live? You clearly have choices along the way and the actual copying, which is a direct continuation of his previous life.
You only have MEMORIES of choices - choices that the original Simon and Reed Simon did. Herber Simon's choices were your own, but you couldn't tell the difference.
Copying is only the continuation of a memory - not the continuation of your consciousness. Contrary to what Catherine says at the end, and what Sarang claims, it's not a transfer. If you're not already aboard the ARK when the game begins, it won't matter how many times you copy yourself. However, you COULD be already aboard the ARK as the game begins, at which time your consciousness will start once your memory reaches the copying to the ARK.

Quote:The way I see it is that you always play as the current Simon, but every time the body chances, in the copy's perspective, it is instantaneous. The game then changes perspective to the next Simon because of gameplay reasons, when in reality the player is doomed twice (2015, and Omicron, excluding the ending). From the perspective of the copied, he is transfered. From the original's perspective, nothing changes.
That's sort of a way to look at it, since the player is actively participating in the game instead of remembering it, but I think it's meant to portray Herber Simon as the actual protagonist throughout the game, having the player REMEMBER all he did just as Herber does. Only after the copy, does he know who he is. ...unless he later makes another copy - then he could have been that copy all along too.

...but my point is that it was POSSIBLE for the protagonist to be a memory already aboard the ARK when the game begins, so Simon isn't a moron. He was just in disbelief that he lost the most important coin toss of his life.

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01-14-2016, 11:22 PM
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Mudbill Offline
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#24
RE: Player choice and The End.

Well, he both lost and won that toss though, since it has no real meaning. The coin toss is just a way for them to comfort themselves with the situation. Simon did arrive at the ark, but he also didn't. So Ark-Simon won the "toss", and he gets to live on. Herber-Simon did not.

I see what you mean by the memory thing, but these are both only speculations, are they not? I don't think either is cannon, so can't really say one is more correct than the other.

01-14-2016, 11:33 PM
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Cranky Old Man Offline
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#25
RE: Player choice and The End.

(01-14-2016, 11:33 PM)Mudbill Wrote: Well, he both lost and won that toss though, since it has no real meaning. The coin toss is just a way for them to comfort themselves with the situation. Simon did arrive at the ark, but he also didn't. So Ark-Simon won the "toss", and he gets to live on. Herber-Simon did not.
Well, Herber Simon gets to live on too. With a bit of luck and engineering, the volcanic vents and the gel, could sustain him indefinitely.
...but I think I just realized what you mean by not being ABLE to copy yourself IF you are a memory. If you ARE acting to copy yourself, then you're not a memory. ...so there's no use hoping to do that, even if you remember past transfers working out just fine (since ALL past transfers MUST have worked out with you being where you are). NOW I understand why "Simon was a moron". ...but that's hard to realize, especially if you've just got chewed on by a giant worm fish, and may have had your left hand chewed off.
This is confusing.

Quote:I see what you mean by the memory thing, but these are both only speculations, are they not? I don't think either is cannon, so can't really say one is more correct than the other.

Yeah, the after credit ending was confusing. I think that they actually DID switch protagonist after the credits, to please the players.
However, I wish that they would have split it up into two endings. You made a bunch of choices testing whether you believed in artificial life or not. If you showed that you didn't, by "killing" more robots than you saved, then you shouldn't believe that you would get transfered over either. I didn't WANT to go in the ARK. I sat around waiting to die of old age when I was supposed to launch the ARK. I did everything concievable to destroy the ARK. That last test that you take, I actually answered that I wanted to die on the last question. ...just because I don't believe in computer memories being actually conscious. I didn't want to be a weaponized social engineering program for aliens to fall victim to.

Noob scripting tutorial: From Noob to Pro

(This post was last modified: 01-15-2016, 12:10 AM by Cranky Old Man.)
01-15-2016, 12:08 AM
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Mudbill Offline
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#26
RE: Player choice and The End.

Yeah, I feel like out of all the choices throughout the game, actually launching the art should definitely have been one. It would also be nice and present a lot of replayability if the choices made impacted the ending.

01-15-2016, 12:30 AM
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