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Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta
Sirandar Offline
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#21
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

From the OP

For you it is a game .... for me is is an experience ... to bad the vast majority of experiences in gaming are abusive using the same model. Give a compelling experience at the beginning to garner player investment and then slowly start the abuse which the player tolerates because of the investment. Bio shock Infinite was a classic example of this ... great game up to the baseball scene and then the abuse started. Needless to say I didn't finish that one, but did watch the endings on Youtube and had a decent experience and didn't miss much.

In the frame of the game, Frictional is asking me to do what I wouldn't, in this particular case to get a throwaway part that could easily hidden for me to find instead. I am curious .... if Frictional added a patch to put the chip somewhere I could find and no robot had to die .... Would that change the flow of the game and outcome. I don't know myself.

If allowing me to find the chip doesn't change anything, then Frictional is just making me do stuff I don't like because they want me to. I am their bitch.

And yes, I paid for the game and that pays their salaries and gives them profits. I do expect a game that satisfies me and allows me to complete it. I don't expect my money back, but because they didn't meet my expectation, I will no longer support them. That is the way it is just like I am forced to play the game as it is or leave it.

If developers showed more respect to players they might find a new paying market of customers are just waiting to be tapped. But that market is pretty picky so I cant really blame them for not catering to it.

It is very saddening to me, because what an experience Soma could have been if Frictional would have used the assets and plot to make a compelling thoughtful game, roughly doubling the effort they put into it. But there is little return on their investment there as gamers have been trained what to expect. Soma defies those expectations at the same time it embraces and overuses them.

And along the same lines if it was my choice the ESRB would be completely scrapped as the useless tool it is and the rating system would simply state

a) Forced choices where the player must kill to proceed
b) Forced choices where the player is forced to steal to proceed
c) Forced choices where the player is forced to abuse harm or torture sentient beings to proceed

Then players, including teenagers would know what they are getting into and parents that actually parent could better choose and discuss the games their children play.

Spoiler below!
I played the game up to the robot stun choice like drinking fine wine, and it was. I refuse to stun either robot. I found the document outlining the AI level of both robots and both are ADVANCED AI. Add to that the effects of the WAU and the player at thins point has no way to know if it is a toaster or not. Frictional could edit that document to say that the little white robot is a toaster but even then there is the effects of WAU
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015, 01:07 AM by Sirandar.)
09-25-2015, 12:32 AM
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grrrz Offline
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Joined: Sep 2013
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#22
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

the thing is you're SUPPOSED to feel bad, that kind of the whole point. but this is a story. you're not Simon, even if you make a few decision for him, everything is already set in motion. this conversation is totally surreal.
on this note
Spoiler below!

I was deeply affected by the choice to kill Simon 2, and decided to proceed, thinking it would be too horrific to wake up and discover he was left behind (and that's exactly how you live the end of the game). but maybe I was wrong. same goes for a robot underwater whose totally stuck.
But for the women at the end, there was no dillemma, she lived in suffering and asks you to kill her, you do it at the press of a button, leaving her in her suffering would have been the cruel choice.

09-25-2015, 12:49 AM
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Noisecode Offline
Member

Posts: 90
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Joined: Sep 2015
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#23
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

Spoiler below!


(09-25-2015, 12:32 AM)Sirandar Wrote: From the OP

For you it is a game .... for me is is an experience ... to bad the vast majority of experiences in gaming are abusive using the same model. Give a compelling experience at the beginning to garner player investment and then slowly start the abuse which the player tolerates because of the investment. Bio shock Infinite was a classic example of this ... great game up to the baseball scene and then the abuse started. Needless to say I didn't finish that one, but did watch the endings on Youtube and had a decent experience and didn't miss much.

In the frame of the game, Frictional is asking me to do what I wouldn't, in this particular case to get a throwaway part that could easily hidden for me to find instead. I am curious .... if Frictional added a patch to put the chip somewhere I could find and no robot had to die .... Would that change the flow of the game and outcome. I don't know myself.

If allowing me to find the chip doesn't change anything, then Frictional is just making me do stuff I don't like because they want me to. I am their bitch.

And yes, I paid for the game and that pays their salaries and gives them profits. I do expect a game that satisfies me and allows me to complete it. I don't expect my money back, but because they didn't meet my expectation, I will no longer support them. That is the way it is just like I am forced to play the game as it is or leave it.

If developers showed more respect to players they might find a new paying market of customers are just waiting to be tapped. But that market is pretty picky so I cant really blame them for not catering to it.

It is very saddening to me, because what an experience Soma could have been if Frictional would have used the assets and plot to make a compelling thoughtful game, roughly doubling the effort they put into it. But there is little return on their investment there as gamers have been trained what to expect. Soma defies those expectations at the same time it embraces and overuses them.

And along the same lines if it was my choice the ESRB would be completely scrapped as the useless tool it is and the rating system would simply state

a) Forced choices where the player must kill to proceed
b) Forced choices where the player is forced to steal to proceed
c) Forced choices where the player is forced to abuse harm or torture sentient beings to proceed

Then players, including teenagers would know what they are getting into and parents that actually parent could better choose and discuss the games their children play.

[Spoiler]I played the game up to the robot stun choice like drinking fine wine, and it was. I refuse to stun either robot. I found the document outlining the AI level of both robots and both are ADVANCED AI. Add to that the effects of the WAU and the player at thins point has no way to know if it is a toaster or not. Frictional could edit that document to say that the little white robot is a toaster but even then there is the effects of WAU

[/spoiler]


Luckily, when it comes to how you feel, you are in the minority.

And everything you listed, your opinion.

I fully support frictional and all of their creative endeavors, so thank you for your small one time monetary contribution. You've been a big help Wink

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09-25-2015, 01:16 AM
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Romulator Offline
Not Tech Support ;-)

Posts: 3,577
Threads: 61
Joined: Jan 2013
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#24
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

OP, if it makes you feel better, just after you choose to stun either robot, Simon questions the "Why?" moral. It's essential for progression, and allows you to figure out whether or not there is an alternative.

Discord: Romulator#0001
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09-25-2015, 01:27 AM
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Sirandar Offline
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Posts: 11
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Joined: Sep 2015
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#25
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

A closing note from the OP to the devs which of course they are free to ignore

Soma had a lot of great aspects. It was intriguing, thought provoking and relatively non-violent. It had great atmosphere, feel and good flow. It was beautiful to look at too and provided information to the player in very compelling and novel ways.

In a sense, Frictional may be one of the few devs that could make a game I would finish and enjoy and feel it was an enriching empowering experience. You probably cant even if you wanted to in the current gaming climate.

That said, Soma has a lot of company on my "I won't finish the game list" and since there is some possibility that you could make a game worth playing I will describe my experiences with games so you can assess my market niche.

1) Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim = didn't finish but not due to moral outrage ... the quests were too bland and pointless to be worth my time. Same is true for most sandboxes. Some of Skyrims quests were OK, but you can imagine how much I likes the 1/2 done civil war.

2) Batman Arkham Asylum: Violent and fairly abusive to the player but there was a certain craftmanship to that countered that = Finished twice

3) All the other Batman and superhero games: Interesting sandboxes, annoying abusive games = didn't finish once

4) Prince of Persia Sand of Time: Mindless Storytelling but fun Finished 2x. All other Prince of Persia games = highly abusive

5) Myst Revelation: Played 8x over the years Still one of the best games ever made despite being linearish. Myst End of Ages: A crap 1/4 done game = still finished but only because it was 1/4 done.

6) Fallout New Vegas: The ultimate in mixed content. Guns, Violence, stupid, silly, buggy but somehow the game just worked and delivered a game I played 3 times

7) Deus Ex HR: Another highly conflicted game. The boss battles were highly abusive with a pacifist build and written by another dev. Eventually fixed after nobody cared anymore. Jensens story and the atmosphere prevailed = finished twice

8) NeverWinter Nights Series: MotB was a 1/2 finished masterpiece but only played once because I couldn't bring down the wall. Hordes of the Underdark was also great and I finished that twice. These games can be abusive if you build your character wrong.

9) Planescape Torment: Masterpiece in its time. Played 3x. Some choices were forced but they were well constructed

10) Dragon Age Origins: Played up to the part where you were forced to drink the darkspawn blood. The forced choice was understandable, but how they framed the choice and how my character responded was not == ended playing after that abuse. Never played a DA game again.

11) Mass Effect = Violent but not particularly abusive in my playthroughs. Some forced choices but they didn't cause me to quit. ME1 was a masterpiece. ME2 was a great game but I hated being the Elusive Man's bitch. ME3 had some fairly abusive battles, but it was still playable.

12) Crysis: Didn't have a PC good enough for the original. The second one I played and it was fun but no enough to buy sequels.

13) Assassins Creed: Played the first one and it bored me to tears and it is about assassinations. Never finished never bought another.

14) Portal: Bland subversive fun = finished both

15)Longest Journey and Dreamfall: Fully played and loved both. Dreamfall Chapters started will but descended into an unplayable mess in chapter 3

16) Vanishing of Ethan Carter: Played 3x and loved it. Yes its linear but no forced choices either.

17) Antichamber: Played 2x and loved it

18) Don't Starve: Seems innocuous but extremely abusive

19) Witcher Series: 1) Interesting enough to finish once due to atmosphere and story 2) Couldn't even make it 1/4 though, monster hunting sucked, too much politics, too many annoyances 3) Loved and hated it: player is forced to act a Geralt would so the freedom of action is actually very limited. A lot of poorly crafted forced choices. Monster hunting is fairly compelling. Some quests are very compelling. Geralt is very unempowered in this game with few satisfying choices to be made and lots of abusive ones. Every wolf and dog in the game attacks on sight. Every bandit and deserter is a homicidal maniac. Stopped playing this game in hopes modders can fix it ... unlikely though.

Before you scream about moral inconsistencies .... thats how life is and moral landscapes change over time
(This post was last modified: 09-25-2015, 04:46 AM by Sirandar.)
09-25-2015, 04:32 AM
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EnDash Offline
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Posts: 35
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Joined: Apr 2013
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#26
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

Spoiler below!

(09-25-2015, 04:32 AM)Sirandar Wrote: A closing note from the OP to the devs which of course they are free to ignore

Soma had a lot of great aspects. It was intriguing, thought provoking and relatively non-violent. It had great atmosphere, feel and good flow. It was beautiful to look at too and provided information to the player in very compelling and novel ways.

In a sense, Frictional may be one of the few devs that could make a game I would finish and enjoy and feel it was an enriching empowering experience. You probably cant even if you wanted to in the current gaming climate.

That said, Soma has a lot of company on my "I won't finish the game list" and since there is some possibility that you could make a game worth playing I will describe my experiences with games so you can assess my market niche.

1) Fallout 3, Oblivion, Skyrim = didn't finish but not due to moral outrage ... the quests were too bland and pointless to be worth my time. Same is true for most sandboxes. Some of Skyrims quests were OK, but you can imagine how much I likes the 1/2 done civil war.

2) Batman Arkham Asylum: Violent and fairly abusive to the player but there was a certain craftmanship to that countered that = Finished twice

3) All the other Batman and superhero games: Interesting sandboxes, annoying abusive games = didn't finish once

4) Prince of Persia Sand of Time: Mindless Storytelling but fun Finished 2x. All other Prince of Persia games = highly abusive

5) Myst Revelation: Played 8x over the years Still one of the best games ever made despite being linearish. Myst End of Ages: A crap 1/4 done game = still finished but only because it was 1/4 done.

6) Fallout New Vegas: The ultimate in mixed content. Guns, Violence, stupid, silly, buggy but somehow the game just worked and delivered a game I played 3 times

7) Deus Ex HR: Another highly conflicted game. The boss battles were highly abusive with a pacifist build and written by another dev. Eventually fixed after nobody cared anymore. Jensens story and the atmosphere prevailed = finished twice

8) NeverWinter Nights Series: MotB was a 1/2 finished masterpiece but only played once because I couldn't bring down the wall. Hordes of the Underdark was also great and I finished that twice. These games can be abusive if you build your character wrong.

9) Planescape Torment: Masterpiece in its time. Played 3x. Some choices were forced but they were well constructed

10) Dragon Age Origins: Played up to the part where you were forced to drink the darkspawn blood. The forced choice was understandable, but how they framed the choice and how my character responded was not == ended playing after that abuse. Never played a DA game again.

11) Mass Effect = Violent but not particularly abusive in my playthroughs. Some forced choices but they didn't cause me to quit. ME1 was a masterpiece. ME2 was a great game but I hated being the Elusive Man's bitch. ME3 had some fairly abusive battles, but it was still playable.

12) Crysis: Didn't have a PC good enough for the original. The second one I played and it was fun but no enough to buy sequels.

13) Assassins Creed: Played the first one and it bored me to tears and it is about assassinations. Never finished never bought another.

14) Portal: Bland subversive fun = finished both

15)Longest Journey and Dreamfall: Fully played and loved both. Dreamfall Chapters started will but descended into an unplayable mess in chapter 3

16) Vanishing of Ethan Carter: Played 3x and loved it. Yes its linear but no forced choices either.

17) Antichamber: Played 2x and loved it

18) Don't Starve: Seems innocuous but extremely abusive

19) Witcher Series: 1) Interesting enough to finish once due to atmosphere and story 2) Couldn't even make it 1/4 though, monster hunting sucked, too much politics, too many annoyances 3) Loved and hated it: player is forced to act a Geralt would so the freedom of action is actually very limited. A lot of poorly crafted forced choices. Monster hunting is fairly compelling. Some quests are very compelling. Geralt is very unempowered in this game with few satisfying choices to be made and lots of abusive ones. Every wolf and dog in the game attacks on sight. Every bandit and deserter is a homicidal maniac. Stopped playing this game in hopes modders can fix it ... unlikely though.

Before you scream about moral inconsistencies .... thats how life is and moral landscapes change over time


O_O

have you tried yoga?
09-25-2015, 05:14 AM
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tatterdemalion Offline
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#27
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

If you're that worried about linearity and limited choices, maybe computer games aren't the best entertainment option for you. Try D&D or Call of Cthulhu or something.
09-25-2015, 10:17 AM
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kojack Offline
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#28
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

You finished portal, which involves being forced to murder the companion cube (have a read of the various theories about what's inside the cube), but will give up on a game you just bought rather than using a stun gun on a crazy robot? Especially since it's the kind of robot that has tried to kill you previously.
09-25-2015, 10:57 AM
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Noisecode Offline
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#29
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

(09-25-2015, 10:57 AM)kojack Wrote: You finished portal, which involves being forced to murder the companion cube (have a read of the various theories about what's inside the cube), but will give up on a game you just bought rather than using a stun gun on a crazy robot? Especially since it's the kind of robot that has tried to kill you previously.

Mic drop.

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09-25-2015, 11:12 AM
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Radiance Offline
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#30
RE: Issue: I simply refuse to use the stun gun on any robot in Delta

I, on the other hand, would like to use stun baton on every creature, if enough charge.
09-25-2015, 12:01 PM
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