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Why is the engine frame-rate limited?
Kleetus Offline
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#21
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 02:41 AM)wastedfate Wrote: V-sync times the imaging so that it displays the next image after the old one is done. Limiting your FPS to your refresh rate should help with screen tear, however it doesn't actively wait until the monitor is ready for the next image. Your fps being 60 is simply a side effect of v-sync, since your monitor cannot handle more than that without screen tear. Since limiting your fps to your refresh rate doesn't do this, you still get screen tear.

I appreciate the reply.

My LCD's refresh rate is 60. The game's default config setting is 60FPS.

This is no different to what Vsync does. 60FPS for my monitor means it's synced.

Vsync times the frame buffer so that only entire frames are seen on screen.

If the frame-rate is the same as your refresh rate, only entire frames can be seen because that's all there is.

There is nothing else magical going on, it's that simple.

Quote "When vertical synchronization is in use, the frame rate of the rendering engine will exactly equal the monitor's refresh rate, if it was higher".

That quote was from Wikipedia, and although Wiki is not always accurate, Vsync is a pretty straight forward concept.

(09-11-2010, 02:41 AM)wastedfate Wrote: Your issue with access violation is very, very, very unspecific. Only advice I can give you is try running it as an administrator.

No, running as Admin doesn't solve it. It's a game bug, it's not "very very unspecific" and it's outlined by the developer in the "Troubleshooting Guide" Sticky:

http://www.frictionalgames.com/forum/thread-3754.html

Problem E: Vsync makes game crash

For some cards, enabling vsync does not work correctly and make the game crash.


(09-11-2010, 02:41 AM)wastedfate Wrote: you can tell the difference up to about 60fps. Anything after that is really pointlessly wasting memory, though. But seriously, wanting anything more than 60 fps is kind of pointless, wanting anything more than 80 or so is just stupid.

That is just wrong. It's not about what you can see, it's about input responsiveness.

As I've posted numerous times in this thread, that people have ignored, frame-rate can have a direct impact on input lag.

That's not just an opinion, it's proven fact.

Do a Google search and see for yourself, as you obviously either don't believe or understand it.


09-11-2010, 04:03 AM
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JoeK Offline
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#22
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

Guys, don't feed the troll.

It's obvious: he is ignoring facts and sound advice from everyone, starting arguments, and making people angry/upset.

There's more than enough information/reason in this thread for a normal human being to understand the difference between FPS capping and vertical sync (thanks to Eigenmusic). Also, I play Counter Strike: Source religiously, and I don't know a single person who would complain about input lag when their FPS is near 60. If he wanted to prove his point about that, he would provide us with evidence, rather than telling us to do the work of looking up information. There should be no other point for Kleetus to continue this thread other than to troll us.

Ignore further arguments (he'll probably try to argue with me now).

Don't feed the troll.
09-11-2010, 04:31 AM
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Kleetus Offline
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#23
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 04:31 AM)JoeK Wrote: Guys, don't feed the troll.

Then why did you post? And I asked a specific question, if anyone's a troll, it's you who have contributed zero to this thread.

(09-11-2010, 04:31 AM)JoeK Wrote: It's obvious: he is ignoring facts and sound advice

It's obvious some people don't understand such a simple concept as Vsync.

Refresh rate is in Hz, which is simply the number of times data is drawn a second.

FPS is the number of individual frames per second.

If they're both the same number, then they have to be synched.

It's not mathematically possible for anything else.

For example, if you have a light bulb flashing at 60 times per second, and another light bulb flashing at 60 times per second, they will both flash at the EXACT same time, otherwise they wouldn't both be operating at 60 times per second....

It's really not that difficult to understand.


(09-11-2010, 04:31 AM)JoeK Wrote: Also, I play Counter Strike: Source religiously, and I don't know a single person who would complain about input lag when their FPS is near 60.

Right, so one game and person means that it applies to every other game, PC and person.

(09-11-2010, 04:31 AM)JoeK Wrote: If he wanted to prove his point about that, he would provide us with evidence

If you really were genuine and wanted to know, you could have used Google and found the answer faster than it took you to post.

Nice try.

Anyway, I couldn't care less what you or some others believe or dont' believe.

If you actually were an experienced gamer, then you would know that frame-rate affects every input device you use.

You pretend to understand Vsync, yet you aren't aware of this?

(09-11-2010, 04:31 AM)JoeK Wrote: Ignore further arguments (he'll probably try to argue with me now)

Don't do me any favours.

News flash, it's my thread, I have every right to post and reply.

If you don't like it, then what are you doing here? Huh

I didn't ask any of you to reply, I simply asked a question on a game forum.


09-11-2010, 04:54 AM
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nofsky Offline
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#24
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

Kleetus, read Eigenmusic comment, in particular the first paragraph. Just because your framerate is 60 and your monitor is at 60 hz does not mean they are synchronized. The timing on both must match exactly or there may still be screen tearing. The frame limiter in the game may not be as exact or the fps may drop below 60 fps, thus making it out of sync. Screen tearing is when the game forces the monitor to begin updating the screen with a new frame before it is finished with the old. V-sync makes the timing exact by forcing the game to wait until the monitor is finished updating the screen.
09-11-2010, 04:59 AM
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Gvaz Offline
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#25
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

Speaking of v-sync, I don't think vsync works at all in this game.

Turned it on, tearing in the sewers all over the place.
Tried forcing vsync and triple buffering via d3doverrider, still tearing.

Am I doing something wrong?
09-11-2010, 06:20 AM
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Spiegelman Offline
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#26
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 06:20 AM)Gvaz Wrote: Speaking of v-sync, I don't think vsync works at all in this game.

Turned it on, tearing in the sewers all over the place.
Tried forcing vsync and triple buffering via d3doverrider, still tearing.

Am I doing something wrong?

I had tearing before I turned it on, but haven't experienced since then (in the Prison now). Maybe try changing your monitor refresh rate to 60 if it isn't already? Or maybe Eigen will come back and can help. Tongue

And kleetus, I'll make a TL;DR version for you of Eigenmusic's post:

60 FPS and 60Hz monitor refresh rate =/= v-sync. From what I understand, v-sync forces the game to refresh the frames at the same rate your monitor refreshes the pixels.

Another thing though... if Eigenmusic is right, and your monitor only refreshes at 60Hz, then why would you want higher than 60FPS in your game? V-sync would essentially just lower your FPS back to 60 so forcing the limitFPS variable to false would be pointless.
09-11-2010, 06:43 AM
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Commando Peach Offline
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#27
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 04:54 AM)Kleetus Wrote: It's obvious some people don't understand such a simple concept as Vsync.

Refresh rate is in Hz, which is simply the number of times data is drawn a second.

FPS is the number of individual frames per second.

If they're both the same number, then they have to be synched.

It's not mathematically possible for anything else.

For example, if you have a light bulb flashing at 60 times per second, and another light bulb flashing at 60 times per second, they will both flash at the EXACT same time, otherwise they wouldn't both be operating at 60 times per second....

It's really not that difficult to understand.

Hey, uh... I'm no computer expert here, but I do get what the other guys are trying to say.

I'll use the example that you gave to help clear up some of the confusion here. Think about those two light bulbs again. Just to make it easier to visualize, think about them flashing once per second, sixty times a minute.

They both flash at the same rate (once every second), but assume that light bulb #2 flashes for the first time a half a second after bulb #1 starts. They both continue flashing once every second, but the bulbs are flashing back and forth at a steady rate, not at the same time. Just because they flash the same number of times per minute does NOT assume that they flash at the exact same time.

Bulb #1 flashes at: 0s 1s 2s 3s 4s...
Bulb #2 flashes at: .5s 1.5s 2.5s 3.5s 4.5s...

Vsync would hypothetically hold Bulb #2 until Bulb #1 was ready to flash, and then let them both flash at the same time.

Without VSync, your monitor and the game can refresh at the same rate, but can still be out of phase with each other. Since, like Eigen said, your monitor will refresh pixel by pixel and not all at once, you'll get image tearing when the game is refreshing in a different phase than the monitor. They're going at the same rate, but not starting at the same time without Vsync.

Does this help?
09-11-2010, 09:37 AM
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Kyorisu Offline
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#28
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-09-2010, 06:52 AM)jens Wrote: Having a stable FPS is preferred over having something that fluctuates, that is why it is locked to 60 as there is no need for it to be higher. You can turn it off as you have noticed.

Oh you couldn't be any more wrong. No need you say? I have a 120hz monitor there is plenty of need.
09-11-2010, 11:28 AM
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MulleDK19 Offline
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#29
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 04:03 AM)Kleetus Wrote: My LCD's refresh rate is 60. The game's default config setting is 60FPS.

This is no different to what Vsync does. 60FPS for my monitor means it's synced.

Vsync times the frame buffer so that only entire frames are seen on screen.

If the frame-rate is the same as your refresh rate, only entire frames can be seen because that's all there is.

The fact that you keep claiming that limiting the FPS to equal the refresh of your monitor, shows how extremely ignorant you are.

Just because your monitor is refreshing at 60, and your FPS is 60 doesn't make them update at the same time.

Let me try to illustrate. Let's say your monitors refresh rate is 5, and your FPS is 5.

Now, I'll try to illustrate every time the game renders and every time your monitor refreshes (Illustrated by -)


[Image: VSyncExplanation.png]

[Image: 16455.png]
09-11-2010, 02:11 PM
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Gvaz Offline
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#30
Solved: 4 Years, 1 Month, 1 Week ago RE: Why is the engine frame-rate limited?

(09-11-2010, 06:43 AM)Spiegelman Wrote:
(09-11-2010, 06:20 AM)Gvaz Wrote: Speaking of v-sync, I don't think vsync works at all in this game.

Turned it on, tearing in the sewers all over the place.
Tried forcing vsync and triple buffering via d3doverrider, still tearing.

Am I doing something wrong?

I had tearing before I turned it on, but haven't experienced since then (in the Prison now). Maybe try changing your monitor refresh rate to 60 if it isn't already? Or maybe Eigen will come back and can help. Tongue

My refresh rate of my monitor is 60 though...
09-11-2010, 02:21 PM
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